Guide - Group Makeups - Guide in making solid groups for content - WIP (2 Viewers)

Keep in mind this post will constantly be changing, improving, giving you the most updated information, I can collect and provide to you as I take input from others' suggestions as well.

Good Day Everyone! I hope all is well in your neck of the woods, or in my case, grains of sand and cacti.

Every few days these types of questions seem to pop up.

"What is a good group makeup?"
"I am 3boxing and want to add 3 more, what works best?"
"Just came back to the game, what is the super l33t special sauce to making groups that can demolish current raid content?"
"Insert question about class/group makeup here..."

Hopefully, I can provide you with at least a good starting point, and we can go from there. Off we go:

1. Play what you are going to enjoy. For me, that means class makeups that work well together, can accomplish things. I do not like corpse recovery, rezzing, losing exp, etc. That isn't fun to me. So, I choose group makeups with synergy, variety, and goals in mind. I will say though, 6boxing Necromancers would be a lot of fun. But in the end, this is a game, and games are meant for entertainment. Play what you enjoy. Unless it is a Druid. We do not need more Druids in this game going for Kaen's army. If you really want to play a Druid, fine...just don't tell anyone.

There are 3 types of access when it comes to accounts. Free to Play (F2P), Silver, and Gold.

• F2P means just that. Free to Play the game with limited Alternate Advancement Points (AA) at 250 total, limited gear choices (Non-Prestige) and allows you to have an OK time in previous content. You are very limited and will not find much success in current content as an F2P player. Once you spend that 250 AA, you can no longer earn any more, and can only use what you spent. You must go gold to earn more.
• Gold is a paid account, either through a Subscription plan from a funding source like a Credit Card, etc. Or via an in-game currency called a Kronos. This currency can be bought from DBG directly but is much cheaper to buy from 3rd party websites at your own risk. Note: I am not condoning the purchase from these other sources, I am just stating they are usually cheaper. Gold accounts are not limited in any way, and you have full access to all AA, gear, etc.
• Silver is when you let a Kronos paid subscription run out. You back to a limited status, but have access to 1000AA, instead of the 250AA cap. Once that 1000AA have already been spent, you can no longer gain any more, but you are able to use what is already spent.

Let's talk a little about MQNext as well. Short synopsis, as I will really dive into this later in the post. Since I have shown above there are a couple of ways to have accounts setup, there are also a couple of ways to run MQNext resources. Freely available resources, and Paid resources. I am not an employee of Redguides, nor do I have any affiliations with the plugin developers, but I will say this. If money is not an issue - Paid plugins are the way to go. Hands down. No questions asked. No hesitations. Unequivocally. Specifically, the CWTN resources, Tradeskills (if that is your thing), MQ2Grind (if Paid Accounts mentioned above). Personally, I run 9 accounts, all subbed via Kronos, and am licensed for a few TS resources, every CWTN resource available, and Grind. If I were to do it all again fresh? I would do the same thing.

So, in essence your choices are:

• Free account, free resources.
• Free account, paid resources.
• Silver account, free resources.
• Silver account, paid resources.
• Gold account, free resources.
• Gold account, paid resources.

IMHO - the last two are the way to go, to get the most out of the game. But the choice is obviously yours, and depends on what you seek, your goals, etc.

Now, with that said, let's dig a little deeper. There is a term in this game when talking about successful group makeups and it is: The Holy Trinity

What is this Holy Trinity you ask? The Holy Trinity are 3 toons, grouped together, with 3 vastly different and very specific roles. Tank, Healer, and Crowd Control (CC).

• Tanks are the meat and potatoes of your group. Warrior, Shadowknight, and Paladin are your tank classes. Each of those have their strengths and weaknesses and each can be successful in their groups, depending on the other classes they are paired with. These are your meat shields and protect the rest of the group so they can do their jobs. Warriors are the easiest to play, Paladins are arguably the most diffuclt. Shadowknights are a nice mix in between, really fun to play, and bring a lot to the table.
• Healers are the characters that keep your group alive. Critical to succeed in the end game. These are also considered Priest classes. Cleric, Shaman, and ... I think that's it. Oh, fine! Druids are also considered a priest class, but if you remember from above, we don't want you to play Druids. As far as strength, it is arguably widely accepted Clerics are the best healers in the game, followed closely by Shaman, and then at the very bottom of the list, you have the Druids. Keep in mind, Shaman start out a little weaker, but once they hit 100-ish they really start to shine.
• Crowd Controllers are two basic classes right now, and both are strong. Bards and Enchanters. If you want adds locked down, Enchanter is amazing. If you also want some solid DPS and aDPS, Bard is a better choice. They both bring a lot to the table and you cannot go wrong with either, as long as you bring one of them.

Two examples of really strong Holy Trinity makeups: WAR/CLR/ENC and SHD/SHM/BRD - and are considered the most widely used setups for the Holy Trinity. However, you can swap in and out if you like. Remember, it is your choice, play what you like.

So now we have covered the Holy Trinity, we have 3 more spots in our group of 6 to fill. These are usually considered DPS, aDPS, secondary healer, synergy spots. These 3 spots can be almost virtually anything, but usually people like to fill them with classes that provide options for success in the way of heals, aDPS, auras, corpse recovery, etc etc. You have melee classes, casters, some really good choices. Some DPS choices are:

Melee - Rogues, Berserkers, Monks, Beastlords
Hybrid - Ranger
Casters - Mage, Necromancer, Wizard

Depending on your Holy Trinity choices, best group makeups can vary. I personally like to pair Bards with melee classes, and Enchanters with Caster classes. Here are some options:

SHD/SHM/BRD - BST, BER, ROG. My personal favorite! Excellent synergy, aDPS, secondary heals, corpse recovery. Arguably one of the top group makeups in the game.
WAR/CLR/ENC - BST, MAG x 2. Another favorite.
SHD/CLR/BRD/SHM/MNK/MAG. Great for leveling, exploring, pulling, good fun. This group is what I used to level and deaths were very rare, usually only to my own stupidity.


You really can swap in and out, and make things work. Experiment, have fun. Maybe the right combo that wins the game is out there, waiting to be found.

Another question that is routinely asked: I want to play my <insert class here> and have my tank do tank stuff for me. Can I?

Why yes, you can! Is it ideal? Probably not. I tried it with Monk, and it worked ok. But I found it much easier to drive, move my groups around when I made my Driver toon, my main tank. SHD/WAR. Things ran smoother, easier to control, more reactive to situations, etc. Once I switched over to Tank Driver, never looked back.

Additional Information:

Plugins/Resources I use. Many have asked me about plugins/resources, and what I use. I chose the paid route and will do it again and again. IMHO - pay to win is where it is at.

CWTN - I won't link every CWTN plugin, but I own them all. Hands down the best investment ever!!!! Buy them, use them, argue with Sic about them because he is 99.9999% right, and you will maybe, just maybe be .0001% right. Maybe, on a good day.

Grind - https://www.redguides.com/community/resources/mq2grind.1967/


Lua and Macro Resources:

Tradeskill Next - https://www.redguides.com/community/resources/tradeskill-construction-set-next.2301/

Explorer - https://www.redguides.com/community...-an-explorer-traveler-achievement-macro.1261/

Buttonmaster - https://www.redguides.com/community/resources/button-master.2174/

BoxHud - https://www.redguides.com/community/resources/boxhud.2088/

Lootly - https://www.redguides.com/community/resources/lootly.2196/

Lua Event Manager - https://www.redguides.com/community/resources/mighty-lua-event-manager.2539/

Magellan - https://www.redguides.com/community/resources/magellan-travel-utility.2422/

Don't Make Me Say It - https://www.redguides.com/community/resources/dont-make-me-say-it.2399/

Scriber - https://www.redguides.com/community/resources/scriber.2391/


Ok, that's it for now. Please revisit, add your own experience/insight. Thank you!

 

[eqranger24]

Good write up shadow. This gets asked a lot and i think its something most think about

 

[Gekko]

Very nice summary.

Just need to give the SK some love and put him the group below instead of warrior. :P

WAR/CLR/ENC - BST, MAG x 2. Another favorite.

I am biased because the current main group I am working on is SK/ENC/CLR/ MAG x 2/BST

Is there a way we can up vote this so perhaps it can get stickied in the guide sub-forum?

Be well. Happy gaming.

 

[Bholm]

Awesome this guide is gonna be used by me tomorrow when im starting my first time i have finally joined the right side !!

 

[Sifter228]

Remember to pair the classes that have their class specific sync.
Monks, Bards (yes bards pair well), mages.
Not sure about what other classes gain advantages when paired but I do know the classes I listed will surprise you in dps when you have two in your group.

 

[Sic]

Remember to pair the classes that have their class specific sync.
Monks, Bards (yes bards pair well), mages.
Not sure about what other classes gain advantages when paired but I do know the classes I listed will surprise you in dps when you have two in your group.

> Group Synergy Focus Chart<

 

[pasthiml]

I like warrior, bard, shaman with rouges(FTP) x 3 for dps.

 

[Crypl]

Thank you for this run down. I'm thinking of pulling the trigger this weekend on subbing and starting my MQ2 efforts. I run SHD/SHM/CLR/MNK/BRD/ROG and really wanted to gauge the effort it was going to take to download and configure everything. I'm a bit nervous about my own ability to get it all up and running which is the only reason I haven't upgraded to L2 yet.

 

[Shadow]

Thank you for this run down. I'm thinking of pulling the trigger this weekend on subbing and starting my MQ2 efforts. I run SHD/SHM/CLR/MNK/BRD/ROG and really wanted to gauge the effort it was going to take to download and configure everything. I'm a bit nervous about my own ability to get it all up and running which is the only reason I haven't upgraded to L2 yet.

You will find that the SHM/CLR combo is overkill when the SHM really starts to take hold 100+. Additionally, MNK doesn't bring much to the table, and you might be better served with a BST in it's place. Similarily geared, the DPS is identical, but the BST adds aDPS, slows, heals, etc.

 

[Naeeldar]

Great post Shadow. I like all suggestions and have tried numerous versions of the combos listed.

I will say if any want to play Pal it’s an equally viable tank. The simple truth is all 3 tanks are equally viable they might just have different DPS. If you are under-geared SK/PAL can compensate with self-healing (at the cost of going oom) to get through key difficult encounters. But al 3 tanks are equally viable.

Honeslty these days the biggest influence in my opinion is DPS. Strong DPS in todays game pretty much compensates for any other weaknesses.

 

[Eltai86]

You will find that the SHM/CLR combo is overkill when the SHM really starts to take hold 100+. Additionally, MNK doesn't bring much to the table, and you might be better served with a BST in it's place. Similarily geared, the DPS is identical, but the BST adds aDPS, slows, heals, etc.

At 120 the bst will blow out the monks dps at least in a raid setting (it evens out in group more unless you’re constantly stopping to med).

And the bst boosts the others around it more then the monk does

 

[dewey2461]

At 120 the bst will blow out the monks dps at least in a raid setting (it evens out in group more unless you’re constantly stopping to med).

We have 4x monks in our raids at 120 and we all consistently parse above our beast lords. The beast lords can rock out DPS over the short term, but once they run out of mana the monks steady DPS disc cycles catch up and over take them on the 15m+ sustained DPS. Your mileage may vary.

For group stuff I have my six box team : SK, CLR, SHM, MNK, ROG, BRD

I have thought about replacing the cleric with either a BST or 2x ROG just so mobs melt a little faster but ...

There have been times when doing the harder group missions in TBL, CoV, ToL and the achievements in NoS where having both a cleric and shaman for the extra heals made a huge difference.

I had a friend go with a similar group using just the shaman and there were missions he couldn't quite get done. Especially since his SK wasn't fully maxed out.

With that said the most important thing is playing something you are interested in, focus on getting your setup to the point where you know what each of your characters is doing, and you know how to do things like:

- Tell them all to attack a target
- Tell them all to stop attacking a target
- Tell them all to follow you

Extra credit that will make doing quests easier.
- Tell them all to turn in an item to a NPC
- Tell them all to say a phrase

Maps and Huds:
- Make it so you know where your team is , if one of the gets stuck somewhere, etc.

 

[Naeeldar]

At 120 the bst will blow out the monks dps at least in a raid setting (it evens out in group more unless you’re constantly stopping to med).

And the bst boosts the others around it more then the monk does

Sadly true. MOnks are basically the new wizards.

 

[Crypl]

You will find that the SHM/CLR combo is overkill when the SHM really starts to take hold 100+. Additionally, MNK doesn't bring much to the table, and you might be better served with a BST in it's place. Similarily geared, the DPS is identical, but the BST adds aDPS, slows, heals, etc.

I appreciate the input, and I am sad to hear that about my monk. He is my original character from 1998 and I loved playing him so much back then. I should throw a little more information out your way to get your opinion about my group then. My SK is the only All Access account so she can wear the prestige gear and access RK II & III spells/abilities and is lvl 120. The other 5 toons in my group are mostly EoK geared lvl 111 guys running just the freely available expansions with only Auto Granted AA from lvl 95. I need to sub them all again at some point to get recent AA, but I plan on doing that when I get them all to 115. The Monk, SK, and Cleric are the classes I know how to play the best and know the most about, but it sounds like maybe I can get away with slows/heals/buffs from the shm and at the very least slot something in the cleric's place and maybe add ber/rogx2 in the monk's place. This is all great stuff/conversations as I haven't played in about year now and just picked up NoS on the SK. I also have a 110 chanter and a 105 Mage that could be swapped into those roles. Anything else I would have to lvl up to 90 to group with my Tank.

Oh, and most importantly I am just looking to enjoy going through the content. I stopped playing around Lost Dungeons of Norrath, returned to play for a bit after CotF, then really came back hard after ToL to push my SK to 120, and now after a shorty hiatus I am back for NoS. So I am really in the market to explore the content I missed, gather up those Heroic AA, and get up to speed so that maybe I can nab NoS or the next Xpac for my crew once I've accomplished all this other stuff. I've made a decent group of friends who can help my Tank in NoS so I don't NEED this group to explore the lastest content just yet.

 

[Shadow]

I appreciate the input, and I am sad to hear that about my monk. He is my original character from 1998 and I loved playing him so much back then. I should throw a little more information out your way to get your opinion about my group then. My SK is the only All Access account so she can wear the prestige gear and access RK II & III spells/abilities and is lvl 120. The other 5 toons in my group are mostly EoK geared lvl 111 guys running just the freely available expansions with only Auto Granted AA from lvl 95. I need to sub them all again at some point to get recent AA, but I plan on doing that when I get them all to 115. The Monk, SK, and Cleric are the classes I know how to play the best and know the most about, but it sounds like maybe I can get away with slows/heals/buffs from the shm and at the very least slot something in the cleric's place and maybe add ber/rogx2 in the monk's place. This is all great stuff/conversations as I haven't played in about year now and just picked up NoS on the SK. I also have a 110 chanter and a 105 Mage that could be swapped into those roles. Anything else I would have to lvl up to 90 to group with my Tank.

Oh, and most importantly I am just looking to enjoy going through the content. I stopped playing around Lost Dungeons of Norrath, returned to play for a bit after CotF, then really came back hard after ToL to push my SK to 120, and now after a shorty hiatus I am back for NoS. So I am really in the market to explore the content I missed, gather up those Heroic AA, and get up to speed so that maybe I can nab NoS or the next Xpac for my crew once I've accomplished all this other stuff. I've made a decent group of friends who can help my Tank in NoS so I don't NEED this group to explore the lastest content just yet.

I was sad too when I came back and saw the state they were in. I always loved my original monk. The times breaking camps, raids, etc...

I would argue to sub them now, get the autogrant through RoS (110), then continue leveling them to 115 and max the AA while you can. The reason being it will make it a lot easier to level. Plus, 111-113.5 is grinding/quests, etc but at 113.5 do the ToV progression for ding 115. It is super fast. Provided you have gear for it.

I also gifted you 1 month of Level 2 access to get you started.

 

[an_image]

Great post Shadow. I like all suggestions and have tried numerous versions of the combos listed.

I will say if any want to play Pal it’s an equally viable tank. The simple truth is all 3 tanks are equally viable they might just have different DPS. If you are under-geared SK/PAL can compensate with self-healing (at the cost of going oom) to get through key difficult encounters. But al 3 tanks are equally viable.

Honeslty these days the biggest influence in my opinion is DPS. Strong DPS in todays game pretty much compensates for any other weaknesses.

@Naeeldar you're not wrong, dps is helpful but I'm more of a convenience/balance frame of reference. From that standpoint nothing ever beats tank/bard/enc/cleric...plus whatever dps filling you enjoy. That combination is particularly high dps/adps regardless of dps filling and extremely hard to kill.

A shaman could fill in for a cleric at 100+ but will always need A LOT of "extra" attention in terms of clickies, etc...to get to what an equally undegeared cleric can do. If you then gear up your tank/enc/bard/cleric appropriately (let's not forget people it's HH season for Darkened Breath of Harmony, etc)...nothing will chew through your teams w/ ease.

Just my two cents...shammies are great...but war/sk with bard, enc, cleric > all

 

[Crypl]

I was sad too when I came back and saw the state they were in. I always loved my original monk. The times breaking camps, raids, etc...

I would argue to sub them now, get the autogrant through RoS (110), then continue leveling them to 115 and max the AA while you can. The reason being it will make it a lot easier to level. Plus, 111-113.5 is grinding/quests, etc but at 113.5 do the ToV progression for ding 115. It is super fast. Provided you have gear for it.

I also gifted you 1 month of Level 2 access to get you started.

Thank you for the gift! Do you do any of the dev work? Just curious because my coding/scripting is a bit out of date, but would be interested in learning what is used for plugins and MQ2 in general to contribute back to the community. Pearl, C++, and COBOL are dating myself a bit.

 

[Schuckenstein]

Why WAR/CLR/ENC - BST, MAG x 2 may I ask? Would another caster instead of a BST not be better?

 

[manydills]

Thank you for the gift! Do you do any of the dev work? Just curious because my coding/scripting is a bit out of date, but would be interested in learning what is used for plugins and MQ2 in general to contribute back to the community. Pearl, C++, and COBOL are dating myself a bit.

I could be wrong but I believe most (all?) plugins and MQ itself are C++, and Lua is also used to great effect for some addons. I've also seen some yaml and xml knowledge being useful.

 

[Shadow]

BST brings pseudo-SHM buffs, haste/slows/shrink/heals, another pet, and Mana regen. Very solid aDPS class.

 

[Vrakenor]

I have a Druid in my group....ducks for incoming flying objects!

Nice write up though.

Vrak

 

[Eltai86]

We have 4x monks in our raids at 120 and we all consistently parse above our beast lords. The beast lords can rock out DPS over the short term, but once they run out of mana the monks steady DPS disc cycles catch up and over take them on the 15m+ sustained DPS. Your mileage may vary.

I'm gonna be really blunt and this is coming from someone who knows several of the best bsts in game and also has multiple bsts and monks of his own that he utilizes in raids. The issue here is likely your bsts or the support that your bsts are being given, not the class itself here in a raid setting. Are your bsts on a 10 min fight breaking in just below mages/necros? On these sorts of durations what classes are outparsing the bsts?

Bsts are in a kinda unique position, they benefit entirely from their own adps support they have while also being able to benefit from almost any melee or caster adps support available as well. They are also capable of multidotting mobs so are able to perform decently well in modern raid settings where there are a lot of adds that can be bombed with dots/aes.

Why WAR/CLR/ENC - BST, MAG x 2 may I ask? Would another caster instead of a BST not be better?

If I were to guess their logic is probably something along the lines of: The bst is/can contributing pets still towards the mage "of many" line though the importance is a bit less now with the most recent patch. They are also adding additional mana regen through SE but also through Paragon. A significant portion of Bst and ranger dps still comes from casting spells so the enchanter also does provide a boost to them.

 

[Naeeldar]

I'm gonna be really blunt and this is coming from someone who knows several of the best bsts in game and also has multiple bsts and monks of his own that he utilizes in raids. The issue here is likely your bsts or the support that your bsts are being given, not the class itself here in a raid setting. Are your bsts on a 10 min fight breaking in just below mages/necros? On these sorts of durations what classes are outparsing the bsts?

Bsts are in a kinda unique position, they benefit entirely from their own adps support they have while also being able to benefit from almost any melee or caster adps support available as well. They are also capable of multidotting mobs so are able to perform decently well in modern raid settings where there are a lot of adds that can be bombed with dots/aes.

If I were to guess their logic is probably something along the lines of: The bst is/can contributing pets still towards the mage "of many" line though the importance is a bit less now with the most recent patch. They are also adding additional mana regen through SE but also through Paragon. A significant portion of Bst and ranger dps still comes from casting spells so the enchanter also does provide a boost to them.

BST adds a fair a ount to group overall. That said it’s been a while (EOK/ROS) that I’ve run 3 mage. Decided my next group will be an all high elf group Pal/Ench/Clr/3x mage. Will be interested to see how it comes to my other mag/necro group that has a bst. Guessing alliance should add a fair bit more damage on top of the nice Mage damage.

 

[dewey2461]

I'm gonna be really blunt and this is coming from someone who knows several of the best bsts in game and also has multiple bsts and monks of his own that he utilizes in raids. The issue here is likely your bsts or the support that your bsts are being given, not the class itself here in a raid setting. Are your bsts on a 10 min fight breaking in just below mages/necros? On these sorts of durations what classes are outparsing the bsts?

As far as our parses. #1 is a wizard (he always parses above other wizards) that it is (2-3) mages , then a mix of top rogue(s), mage(s), monk(s), and other wizards. Depending on the event our (1) and only druid will sometimes top the chart.

The beast lord is usually in with a shaman and bard so is not lack of support. Personally, I think he's blowing too much of his mana on the bst disc that turns DoTs into DD's.

It would not surprise me if the bst's could be doing more with less.

If you have any guides I'd love to pass them along to him. I know he's asked a couple times on the EQ forums over the last 1-2 years and most everything I've seen is at least 3-4 years old. I think he's following the write on from freelance.

 

[Eltai86]

As far as our parses. #1 is a wizard (he always parses above other wizards) that it is (2-3) mages , then a mix of top rogue(s), mage(s), monk(s), and other wizards. Depending on the event our (1) and only druid will sometimes top the chart.

The beast lord is usually in with a shaman and bard so is not lack of support. Personally, I think he's blowing too much of his mana on the bst disc that turns DoTs into DD's.

It would not surprise me if the bst's could be doing more with less.

If you have any guides I'd love to pass them along to him. I know he's asked a couple times on the EQ forums over the last 1-2 years and most everything I've seen is at least 3-4 years old. I think he's following the write on from freelance.

A bit concerning wizards are even getting in there right off the bat, mages/necs should really be holding down those top spots (I am assuming that this conversation is around raiding at 120 in TOL/NOS content). Rogues spiking up depending on event isn't uncommon if there are assassinatable targets. My recommendation for almost any class at this point is stop looking at forums. In many cases the information is dated/wrong, current best resources for almost any class at this point are the class specific discords that I have included below.

Is the bst using DW or 2hnd? The correct answer at 120 is DW. Brd and shm are a good base boost but what else is in the group? How many other bsts are in the raid? Are they coordinating firing of a TB paragon and an MGB paragon each every event? Are your rangers organizing and firing off auspice rotations the same way as I asked for bsts? What is the Bsts hdex? Bsts cannot melee crit cap still (they will be one of the last classes to do so)

Bards - https://discord.gg/zTzYQbu76Z
Berserkers - https://discord.gg/6Sybc43MqF
Clerics - https://discord.gg/UbMYdeCQmm and https://discord.gg/nQTBZbH7fn
https://discord.gg/uA6BNUkpu4
Enchanters - https://discord.gg/Ea6ewPbPrM
Magicians - https://discord.gg/MK8PQARxaM https://discord.gg/VyjtTaYDFs
Paladins - https://discord.gg/tGTwTsvrq8
Necromancers - https://discord.gg/NwEvzXfMFV
Rangers - https://discord.gg/GwMY3j2VkJ
Rogues - https://discord.gg/2hEj8Jv2mw
Shaman - https://discord.gg/zqJ9RCHg5Y
Shadowknight - https://discord.gg/nPvJqUq7tD
Warriors - https://discord.gg/P8E6R2FeMd
Wizards - https://discord.gg/rtwT78KDxs

 

[Naeeldar]

BST adds a fair a ount to group overall. That said it’s been a while (EOK/ROS) that I’ve run 3 mage. Decided my next group will be an all high elf group Pal/Ench/Clr/3x mage. Will be interested to see how it comes to my other mag/necro group that has a bst. Guessing alliance should add a fair bit more damage on top of the nice Mage damage.

Well not quite max AA on mages but close enough. Using CWTN on pal, ench, clr, 3 mage group it's shocking how bad dps is compared to even my bst/nec/mag/shm/brd group - let alone my melee groups. I'm reminded why I play melee primarily.

Going to substitute in a bst (2mag) and try another combo where ench replaces brd. Curious where DPS goes with those combos.

 

[Shadow]

Well not quite max AA on mages but close enough. Using CWTN on pal, ench, clr, 3 mage group it's shocking how bad dps is compared to even my bst/nec/mag/shm/brd group - let alone my melee groups. I'm reminded why I play melee primarily.

Going to substitute in a bst (2mag) and try another combo where ench replaces brd. Curious where DPS goes with those combos.

What duration of fights? What is the standard you are comparing them to?

Never been a fan of a 3 MAG group. BST/NEC as that 3rd MAG boosts overall DPS. Having ENC buff but BRD in the group does wonders too.

 

[Naeeldar]

What duration of fights? What is the standard you are comparing them to?

Never been a fan of a 3 MAG group. BST/NEC as that 3rd MAG boosts overall DPS. Having ENC buff but BRD in the group does wonders too.

Well the bst/brd/nec/mage is vastly better dps. I need to do some more comparisons but frankly the mage was consistently putting out more DPS than the 3 mage on his own. I suspect the brd has a much bigger impact on DPS than the ench. I’m going to play with switching out the ench for a brd and check.

As to my real comparison as good as my sk,brd, shm, beast, mag, Nex group is - my 2 ber, bst, shm, brd, sk group or same but 2 rogue group is vastly better dps. It’s interesting to me because almost anything else besides those two groups fall way behind. Even throwing in other melee like ranger or monk (although monks need help) is lower dps.

As to duration we are talking about hours of Shei grinding. So it’s not measuring just a zland like fight but just over time.


Edit bard Update: Put my bard in group no changes and dps is essentially up 2.5-3x. I need to run it for an hour or so but it’s sad that the ench is basically dead. Which then makes me wonder if I should drop cleric and try shaman also (I have that built). It’s still a caster group but it seems like I’m always stuck with shm/brd. any other combo is just so much worse.

 

[durango773]

druids work well in caster groups. enchanters can, but generally fights arnt long enough for them to be put to best use (sorta like clerics).

 

[hammertime6505]

I like SK, Shm, Bard, Zerk x2 Bst

 

[Naeeldar]

I like SK, Shm, Bard, Zerk Bst x2

Why bst x2? Their dps is not as good as rogue/ber (although not bad) and no real value of the second one. Def a unique group composition.

 

[manydills]

Well not quite max AA on mages but close enough. Using CWTN on pal, ench, clr, 3 mage group it's shocking how bad dps is compared to even my bst/nec/mag/shm/brd group - let alone my melee groups. I'm reminded why I play melee primarily.

Going to substitute in a bst (2mag) and try another combo where ench replaces brd. Curious where DPS goes with those combos.

Lol, I literally just built pal/enc/clr/magx3. Sadface.

 

[Shadow]

Well the bst/brd/nec/mage is vastly better dps. I need to do some more comparisons but frankly the mage was consistently putting out more DPS than the 3 mage on his own. I suspect the brd has a much bigger impact on DPS than the ench. I’m going to play with switching out the ench for a brd and check.

As to my real comparison as good as my sk,brd, shm, beast, mag, Nex group is - my 2 ber, bst, shm, brd, sk group or same but 2 rogue group is vastly better dps. It’s interesting to me because almost anything else besides those two groups fall way behind. Even throwing in other melee like ranger or monk (although monks need help) is lower dps.

As to duration we are talking about hours of Shei grinding. So it’s not measuring just a zland like fight but just over time.


Edit bard Update: Put my bard in group no changes and dps is essentially up 2.5-3x. I need to run it for an hour or so but it’s sad that the ench is basically dead. Which then makes me wonder if I should drop cleric and try shaman also (I have that built). It’s still a caster group but it seems like I’m always stuck with shm/brd. any other combo is just so much worse.

Like I said before, ENC buff, but BRD in the group. You have to look at synergy and mana. ENC brings the buffs/lockdown, but what is an ENC doing for your MAG pet/swarms? Mana regen above and beyond Clarity line? Over long term, short burst encounters (Shei grinding), mana will be an issue because of non-stop pulling. This is where BST/NEC and BRD help more than the ENC ever would.

 

[Naeeldar]

Like I said before, ENC buff, but BRD in the group. You have to look at synergy and mana. ENC brings the buffs/lockdown, but what is an ENC doing for your MAG pet/swarms? Mana regen above and beyond Clarity line? Over long term, short burst encounters (Shei grinding), mana will be an issue because of non-stop pulling. This is where BST/NEC and BRD help more than the ENC ever would.

I'm more concerned about the DPS than anything. I'm not convinced Ench are betetr DPS for casters except for a very big burn like ZLandi type fight. Brd overall with epic + fierec is on-going far better.

And yeah for swarm no doubt. I have many group combos and have full tol t2 raid gear on all chars. My go to is always my rogues or ber for true power. but it's sad ench is that useless. Buff bot is not that great a role. I'll prob drop cleric in soon and just add a shaman. Looks like all my groups will always be formed around Shm/Brd. Will never have an alternative.

Edit - I guess the bigger thing is I've played with almost every combo you could come up with since EoK. 3 mage, 3 ber, 3 rogue, 2 of those + bst. Wizzies with alliance. Shm vs cleric - brd/ench in any version of the groups. It's sad to me that you pretty much need to play meele all time. Casters just don't compete in group game.

 

[Shadow]

They do though. Casters can compete, pair them correctly, set the groups correctly etc. The problem is currently, epic 2.0's for SHM/BRD are so helpful, and group makeups with SHD/SHM/BRD/BST/BER/ROG are just truly dominating in ToL/NoS with ROG doing insane dps.

It all boils down to what you are doing, how you are doing it, and what your goals are. I can't be arsed to really parse out my groups, and say grind sessions to see what I am doing overall DPS-wise. Just don't care as much anymore as I am on Test and F2P expansions only.

I have ran:

SHD/SHM/BRD/BST/BER/ROG
PAL/CLR/ENC/BST/MAG/NEC
WAR/CLR/ENC/BST/NEC/NEC

and random combos of all them, or 2 MAG, or 3 NEC, etc. They all do fine. I do wish I had more BRD for my groups, and more NEC for raids.

 

[Leo]

If you're using a Pal as a tank, you should also consider swapping cleric out for Shm healer. The shm can heal just fine and will also boost pets. I've been running pal shm brd nec mag wiz and it seems to do well. I will say with mages, bards seem to be overall more adps vs an enc.

 

[Naeeldar]

They do though. Casters can compete, pair them correctly, set the groups correctly etc. The problem is currently, epic 2.0's for SHM/BRD are so helpful, and group makeups with SHD/SHM/BRD/BST/BER/ROG are just truly dominating in ToL/NoS with ROG doing insane dps.

It all boils down to what you are doing, how you are doing it, and what your goals are. I can't be arsed to really parse out my groups, and say grind sessions to see what I am doing overall DPS-wise. Just don't care as much anymore as I am on Test and F2P expansions only.

I have ran:

SHD/SHM/BRD/BST/BER/ROG
PAL/CLR/ENC/BST/MAG/NEC
WAR/CLR/ENC/BST/NEC/NEC

and random combos of all them, or 2 MAG, or 3 NEC, etc. They all do fine. I do wish I had more BRD for my groups, and more NEC for raids.

So it's not that the groups can't do content. Hell I ran through all missions fine. But the difference in pace from them and any group that has either two rogue or 2 ber (less dps than rogue in sustained but not burst) is just not comparable. We play on same server and in terms of either TOV to NOS eras; I've had multiple end game teams (4 to 5 per expansion) like you more combinations than I want to think about. The reality though is the caster groups with an ench is just not in the ballpark of the melee. Can they do content? Sure. Is it a measurable difference in pace? Absolutely. Hell just removing the ench and adding bard added roughly 275% more dps. In a caster heavy group, if an ench can't compete, what is the point of the class? I get annoyed when classes are useless in comparison. It's one thing when you have a class in terms of dps being 30% better but hwne you start talking multiples there is no reason to play them.

Hence why ench, wiz (although NOS did boost them) and monks are so few and far between. They have very specific roles and yet really can't compete in any of them.

If you're using a Pal as a tank, you should also consider swapping cleric out for Shm healer. The shm can heal just fine and will also boost pets. I've been running pal shm brd nec mag wiz and it seems to do well. I will say with mages, bards seem to be overall more adps vs an enc.

Yep I just made pal this time because I was tired of my 4-5 sk, have a few war, and was due for a new pal. I'll end up dropping cleric later (want to max his aa first) but I'll be curious how much more dps the shaman adds to the group. It was more of me wanting to switch it up from my shm/brd/sk core + melee.

I was expecting them to be worse just not useless in comparison.

 

[Leo]

So it's not that the groups can't do content. Hell I ran through all missions fine. But the difference in pace from them and any group that has either two rogue or 2 ber (less dps than rogue in sustained but not burst) is just not comparable. We play on same server and in terms of either TOV to NOS eras; I've had multiple end game teams (4 to 5 per expansion) like you more combinations than I want to think about. The reality though is the caster groups with an ench is just not in the ballpark of the melee. Can they do content? Sure. Is it a measurable difference in pace? Absolutely. Hell just removing the ench and adding bard added roughly 275% more dps. In a caster heavy group, if an ench can't compete, what is the point of the class? I get annoyed when classes are useless in comparison. It's one thing when you have a class in terms of dps being 30% better but hwne you start talking multiples there is no reason to play them.

Hence why ench, wiz (although NOS did boost them) and monks are so few and far between. They have very specific roles and yet really can't compete in any of them.



Yep I just made pal this time because I was tired of my 4-5 sk, have a few war, and was due for a new pal. I'll end up dropping cleric later (want to max his aa first) but I'll be curious how much more dps the shaman adds to the group. It was more of me wanting to switch it up from my shm/brd/sk core + melee.

I was expecting them to be worse just not useless in comparison.

I haven't found any group content or older raids that I can't beat with that group composition. I actually find that the casters outperform melees when max AAd and silver which is how I typically run my group. I only keep my pally which is my main actively Kronod all the time. The other 5 accounts I only Krono for the first month of a new xpac to max AAs.

 

[Naeeldar]

I haven't found any group content or older raids that I can't beat with that group composition. I actually find that the casters outperform melees when max AAd and silver which is how I typically run my group. I only keep my pally which is my main actively Kronod all the time. The other 5 accounts I only Krono for the first month of a new xpac to max AAs.

So it’s not about getting through content. I’m not sure there is a group make-up that I can’t get through content with these days. Even some really odd ones. It’s mot to me that caster dps is so weak.

Now on the flip side I’m talking raid gear / foci. So melee do tend To get massive benefits with that gear.

 

[Leo]

So it’s not about getting through content. I’m not sure there is a group make-up that I can’t get through content with these days. Even some really odd ones. It’s mot to me that caster dps is so weak.

Now on the flip side I’m talking raid gear / foci. So melee do tend To get massive benefits with that gear.

I dunno, even in raid situations, I typically see Necro / Mages topping parses. Not to say that rogues / zerkers and other melee dps can't as well, but I know casters can perform as well as melee in terms of dps.

The only thing that I think may be a difference would be an optimal adps set up for a melee group vs a sub par adps set up for casters. The glaring example I would think is a lack of bard adps which will hinder most casters. I know the older thought process of bard is for melees and ench is for casters doesn't apply as well in current EQ. I subscribe to the bard is for everyone and makes everything better philosophy now lol!