Strategy - Why you should horde heroic AGI, even on a caster. (1 Viewer)

[aspire2008]

https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq...ns-benefit-neza-10-dodge.246757/#post-3622670

Here's how your chance to dodge is calculated:

Step1 = HeroicStrikethrough(NPC)
Step2 = HeroicAgility / 25
Step3 = MIN( Step1, Step2 )
Step4 = DodgeSkill + 100
Step5 = Step4 + ( DodgeSkill * DodgeSPA ) / 100
Step6 = Step5 / 45
DodgeChance = Step6 + ( Step2 - Step3 )

Roll a random number between 1 and 100, if it's <= than DodgeChance, we successfully dodge.

DodgeSPA is the sum of SPA 174 (dodge) for AA, items, and spells (buffs).
If you have the following:

• AA: Item: Myrmidon's Skill XII (21)
• Item Focus: Improved Dodge VII (70)
• Spell: Illusion Benefit Neza (10)

DodgeSPA = 21 + 10 + 70 = 101

You get only the maximum value between all your AAs + the highest item focus + the highest dodge % buff (they don't stack).

If we assume these values (as an example):

HeroicAgility = 1009
DodgeSkill = 520
HeroicStrikethrough(NPC) = 0

My total dodge chance is:

Step1 = 0
Step2 = 1009 / 25 = 40
Step3 = MIN( 0, 40 ) = 0
Step4 = 520 + 100 = 620
Step5 = 620 + ( 520 * 101 ) / 100 = 1145
Step6 = 531 / 45 = 25
DodgeChance = 25 + ( 40 - 0 ) = 65

What if you fought something with more heroic strikethrough?

HeroicStrikethrough(NPC) = 20

Step1 = 20
Step2 = 1009 / 25 = 40
Step3 = MIN( 20, 40 ) = 20
Step4 = 520 + 100 = 620
Step5 = 620 + ( 520 * 101 ) / 100 = 1145
Step6 = 531 / 45 = 25
DodgeChance = 25 + ( 40 - 20 ) = 45

What if you fought something with even more heroic strikethrough?

Step1 = 50
Step2 = 1009 / 25 = 40
Step3 = MIN( 50, 40 ) = 40
Step4 = 520 + 100 = 620
Step5 = 620 + ( 520 * 101 ) / 100 = 1145
Step6 = 531 / 45 = 25
DodgeChance = 25 + ( 40 - 40 ) = 25

If an NPC's Heroic Strikethrough is higher than your character's Heroic Agility bonus, you are disqualified from the "bonus" you would have gotten at the end.
​

You can argue casters don't get hit often, but at some point they do get hit. Debatable on- is spell mitigation hording better than melee avoidance hording, i.e. how often do you get hit by melee attack as a caster vs how often you get hit by an ae. I'm leaning toward more melee dmg done vs spell dmg done.

I've been hording hAgi even on my casters since TBM, instead of going for the hSta/Int or Wis.

 

[LurkMcGurk]

I've always went with the logic it's better to be able to EAT a hit than to avoid a hit and focus on STA for that reason.

Though I do HAGi on my Clerics/somewhat on shams and druids too as they tend to get punched in the face more often than other casters

 

[rhb]

Big difference from group to raid.

If you take more than 3-4 melee hits on a raid you're dead. Dodge won't save you. It's also much more likely that 3-5 mobs are beating your soon to be corpse because that type of feature is usually built into a raid.

Group however is usually single pulls or maybe 2-3 at a time, you can take quite a few hits and it would make a much larger difference to be able to dodge. I've always stacked a fair amount of Hagi on my enc and wiz.

 

[LurkMcGurk]

Big difference from group to raid.

If you take more than 3-4 melee hits on a raid you're dead. Dodge won't save you. It's also much more likely that 3-5 mobs are beating your soon to be corpse because that type of feature is usually built into a raid.

Group however is usually single pulls or maybe 2-3 at a time, you can take quite a few hits and it would make a much larger difference to be able to dodge. I've always stacked a fair amount of Hagi on my enc and wiz.

I'm taking both group and raid into consideration - Hagi still has the same issue that it only accounts for one of two types of damage too. I find that my characters get hit more often with spell damage/DoTs/some reallly annoying AoE from a named way more often than they get hit by melee.

Hagi might be better than Hsta when we're talking about mobs beating on you - but it aint gonna save you when mobs are casting on you =P

 

[william12]

Heroic Agi wont save you from the massive dots in ROS from even trash mobs. Sta will.

 

[eqgeek]

I always went with AGI followed by STA on my enchanters. I tend to pull with them and not only is a chance to avoid the hit, but it's stun avoidance as well (or so I've been told). I go with a cross between INT and STA for casters, especially those who canni.

 

[FV_Remnant]

The health difference between stacking heroic stamina and stacking agility is insignificant. 6k hp is not going to save your life. A single dodge could account for 20k or more (depending what you're fighting). This is why all my box's stack heroic agility (casters). Obviously my shamans still stack stamina but they're a little different.

 

[william12]

The health difference between stacking heroic stamina and stacking agility is insignificant. 6k hp is not going to save your life. A single dodge could account for 20k or more (depending what you're fighting). This is why all my box's stack heroic agility (casters). Obviously my shamans still stack stamina but they're a little different.

Thats just not true. Even on tanks a high % of your damage is coming from spells/dots now. Stacking heroic agi on casters ? lol let me know how that agi is helping 100k dots for classes that shouldnt be getting hit by melee anyway.

 

[mackal]

here are the others:
https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq...st-update-06-10-15.223510/page-2#post-3261772
https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq...st-update-06-10-15.223510/page-2#post-3268227

 

[FV_Remnant]

Thats just not true. Even on tanks a high % of your damage is coming from spells/dots now. Stacking heroic agi on casters ? lol let me know how that agi is helping 100k dots for classes that shouldnt be getting hit by melee anyway.

You're on of those guys who like to exaggerate I see.

High percent of damage to tanks coming from spells... Lie. Spells are less than 1% of the damage my tanks take. Great post william12, quality contribution.

Stamina adds a comically low amount of health, agility adds a comically low amount of evasion. At the end of the day there's very little evidence for one of the other, but "even on tanks a high % of your damage is comin from spells/dots now"... lmfao. Jesus I'm gonna favorite that post so I can read it every now and then when I need a laugh.

Omg I can't get enough of it, not only do you think spell damage is a "high % of your damage " ... you think the comical amount of health you get from heroic stamina would save you... rofl. "Ahh help, 100k dot ticks, glad I have 220k hp versus 214k hp"... hahahahahahahaha

Oh man... thanks. Eggplant, lolz. F'ing eggplant.

 

[Sum1]

Now, now, kids. Be nice.

I tend to agree with william12 when it comes to casters, although I f'd up a long time ago and went heavy hint/hwis on them when the effects of those weren't super well known. I'd probably change it today. The only caster I don't do that with is my enchanter because I like to pull with him when I'm not running a bard, so he gets hit more often than most casters.

 

[aspire2008]

You're on of those guys who like to exaggerate I see.

High percent of damage to tanks coming from spells... Lie. Spells are less than 1% of the damage my tanks take. Great post @william12, quality contribution.

Stamina adds a comically low amount of health, agility adds a comically low amount of evasion. At the end of the day there's very little evidence for one of the other, but "even on tanks a high % of your damage is comin from spells/dots now"... lmfao. Jesus I'm gonna favorite that post so I can read it every now and then when I need a laugh.

Omg I can't get enough of it, not only do you think spell damage is a "high % of your damage " ... you think the comical amount of health you get from heroic stamina would save you... rofl. "Ahh help, 100k dot ticks, glad I have 220k hp versus 214k hp"... hahahahahahahaha

Oh man... thanks. Eggplant, lolz. F'ing eggplant.

May not be the best way to convince someone, but his point is dead on. Have you people even bothered to see how much hSta adds to casters? Last time I checked and this was around the time I created my excel sheet to calculate weights on heroics in conversion to AC or HP, its laughable at around 12 hp for a caster, it varies though - I'm not sure how the formula works on adding, so like +1 hSta might add 10hp, vs +2 hSta might add 12hp (24 total), +3 might add 10 again (30 hp total), +4 may add 14 (56 total) etc, but every 5 hsta it seems to reset back down to 10 hp per hSta (for casters), with warriors seeing the highest amount of return per hSta when I tested it average around 17 hp per . An average RoS group player probably has around 1200 hSta. Assume you get 15 points per hSta, that come out to be 18000 hp more. That's going to maybe save you from 1/5th of that 100k dot of a namer.

My numbers might be off as I haven't really looked into it in awhile, but someone can go test this by getting a +1, +2, +3, +4, +5 and +6 heroic stamina augs, and watching your hp numbers, it pretty weird how it works, since when you insert the +6 hsta aug your avergae +1 hsta will drop down compared to the +2 or + 3 aug. Also, I might be being very generous with that 15 hp number for a caster.

How many times are you being ae'd per 6-8 hour group play session in EQ, vs how many times are you being hit by a melee attack per 6-8 hour session, even if you are a caster. The only advantage I see from this is maybe it buys your healer about 0.5 to 1 sec more to get a heal off.

 

[william12]

You're on of those guys who like to exaggerate I see.

High percent of damage to tanks coming from spells... Lie. Spells are less than 1% of the damage my tanks take. Great post william12, quality contribution.

Stamina adds a comically low amount of health, agility adds a comically low amount of evasion. At the end of the day there's very little evidence for one of the other, but "even on tanks a high % of your damage is comin from spells/dots now"... lmfao. Jesus I'm gonna favorite that post so I can read it every now and then when I need a laugh.

Omg I can't get enough of it, not only do you think spell damage is a "high % of your damage " ... you think the comical amount of health you get from heroic stamina would save you... rofl. "Ahh help, 100k dot ticks, glad I have 220k hp versus 214k hp"... hahahahahahahaha

Oh man... thanks. Eggplant, lolz. F'ing eggplant.

lol. I go heroic int on casters because agi/sta wont save you anyway. You aint avoiding the damage or mitigating it enough on casters to matter frankly if your caster is taking melee damage he has aggro because your tank sucks or hes dead and thats a wipe anyway.

How many times are you being ae'd per 6-8 hour group play session in EQ, vs how many times are you being hit by a melee attack per 6-8 hour session, even if you are a caster. The only advantage I see from this is maybe it buys your healer about 0.5 to 1 sec more to get a heal off.

Depends if you're fighting the named or trash. Trash shouldnt do either to a caster. Named wont melee you but they do have nasty dots and yes a few k more hp might just save you. Heroic agi on a caster is about the most retarded thing ive ever heard. Why is your caster taking melee damage to begin with ?

 

[aspire2008]

lol. I go heroic int on casters because agi/sta wont save you anyway. You aint avoiding the damage or mitigating it enough on casters to matter frankly if your caster is taking melee damage he has aggro because your tank sucks or hes dead and thats a wipe anyway.



Depends if you're fighting the named or trash. Trash shouldnt do either to a caster. Named wont melee you but they do have nasty dots and yes a few k more hp might just save you. Heroic agi on a caster is about the most retarded thing ive ever heard. Why is your caster taking melee damage to begin with ?

If I'm sitting in a specific spot not that often or at all, but if you move around quite a bit following your tank and killing mobs as you move, quite often as you get proximity aggro from wanderers or static spawns respawning.

 

[FV_Remnant]

Honestly I'm convinced you can stack whatever you like and it will make next to no difference in reality. Lately I've been going jack of all trades and using the best aug of every stat if the class uses it. As long as the class melee's, they get dex and str. Do they cast a spell ever? Throw an int or wis on that bad boy LoL.

 

[ImGreg]

a tad off topic here but I recently let my guild convince me to switch to from type 5 hAGI to hSTAM and i've so far not been happy with it at all. I feel like I take more damage and need MUCH more healing on my SK. Going to let it ride for a few weeks then switch back to AGI and test that out again.

 

[LurkMcGurk]

Stamina adds a comically low amount of health, agility adds a comically low amount of evasion. At the end of the day there's very little evidence for one of the other, but "even on tanks a high % of your damage is comin from spells/dots now"... lmfao. Jesus I'm gonna favorite that post so I can read it every now and then when I need a laugh.

There's PLENTY of evidence explaining why Hsta is better for people than Hagi. Here's one post I like to link to, although the pictures got removed. You can simply Google "Everquest Tanks Hagi vs Hsta" and you'll find threads upon threads of people debating this. More often than not everyone agrees Hsta is better than Hagi even for tanks.

https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/tank-parses.231978/


Let me point out the massive hole in your argument here. You're willing to acknowledge that tanks take mostly melee damage and thus Hagi would be good for them. It's debated on the forums verbatum that Hsta is better than Hagi for TANKS.... Now, let me repeat you made it seem like it was painfully obvious that tanks take more melee damage than spell damage. If people are debating about Hsta being better for someone who takes primarily melee damage (and winning) how is there even an argument that Hagi is good for a character that SHOULDN'T BE TAKING ANY MELEE DAMAGE? Unless you fuck up your casters shouldnt be taking melee damage - except nameds AoE, ramp etc etc. Your casters should *always* primarily be taking spell damage as their main incoming damage. If you can't keep agro on your mobs then maybe that's the problem you should work on fixing rather than trying to make your casters into tanks.... It would sure as shit be a lot easier to fix than trying to make someone whose not designed to take melee damage take melee damage. Your tank is there for a reason.


P.S - I am not being antagonistic like you were in your post to William12, not really looking for an argument here either as I have read through the evidence hundreds of times and I know that Hsta is better than Hagi -- even for tanks. I'm making my post cause I agree with William12 fully on this and think you were being a dick when you had no reason to be... especially considering how you're holding two completely contradictory viewpoints that both can't be true in the same universe.

 

[FV_Remnant]

P.S - I am not being antagonistic like you were in your post to William12,

^^ lol ^^

Strawman, meet argument.

If a caster taking damage I should fix my tank(per you). To which i respond, "If you need an additional 6k HP on your tank to survive a pull, maybe you should fix your cleric".

PS. I don't need to respond sarcastically to your post like you did mine, and I dont care what you have to say since you're wrong... i just wanted to respond because im being sarcastic and i dont actually know if you're wrong or right... but you're wrong because im right... and neil degrasse tyson.

 

[Sum1]

^^^ .... ? What does that mean?

It kinda sounds like you're just being a douche that someone disagreed with you.

 

[william12]

^^^ .... ? What does that mean?

It kinda sounds like you're just being a douche that someone disagreed with you.

I just ignore idiots. You cant fix stupid in my opinion. The guy argues heroic agi is better even for casters when casters do not take melee damage and if they're your tank is dead and the group is wiping.

 

[hellfyre]

a tad off topic here but I recently let my guild convince me to switch to from type 5 hAGI to hSTAM and i've so far not been happy with it at all. I feel like I take more damage and need MUCH more healing on my SK. Going to let it ride for a few weeks then switch back to AGI and test that out again.

Before you go back to agi try dex on your sk and see how that feels

 

[Hambam]

It depends on play style. Raid tanks heroic stam is absolutely better because a lot of values simply don't matter. However hdex has too many benefits (def and dps) where it would be stupid not to go that way if you're not raiding.

I have a chanter friend that does amazing things swarming and have seen many of his parses with hagi and that's fed the way to go. Now this was before the rune nerf (maybe a year ago) and how many casters actually play that way.

It simply depends on how you play. That's it.

 

[playbetter]

You cant fix stupid in my opinion.

Whoa there skippy! Now you are talking 'bout MY peeps...
Cant - to whine or beg in a singsong manner.
Are you actually saying the stupidos of the world would get smarter if we begged them? Jalapeno!!!!! There is hope for us heathens after all.

Now, the truth is WE FIX STUPID EVERY TIME WE HELP SOMEONE LEARN OR UNDERSTAND SOMETHING.

Through civil discourse and debate we have the opportunity to help and influence others.
Dismissing someone because they are not like you is a waste and divisive.

Just a thought,
Playbetter... with each other

 

[Gruber]

https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq...ns-benefit-neza-10-dodge.246757/#post-3622670

Lol.. Thank You.

Haven't played Live EQ in like 5 years, but it feels great to finally be vindicated on hAGI over hDEX, and now know the reason why. Back when I was raiding heavily the second time around.. 2009-2013-ish, everybody and his dog swore by hDEX. Some in this thread still do lol. This was mainly because it had been quantifiable with its effects per parry and riposte. Someone had actually been able to parse it. Meanwhile, hAGI was considered useless.

The thing is, it really doesn't matter that much, unless you have an expansion which rides the numbers hard. The 'tougher' expansions with a gear check. One of those was Underfoot. Unless you had a fleet of high-quality clerics, Underfoot would send hDEX tanks into next week. Literally. Brath. That mole boss. Even Fippy was pretty mean for the time. That stuff would murder hDEX tanks. And then I finally got over 200 hAGI. And then suddenly stuff started quieting down immensely and it became manageable. Per the description here, what we can say is that the hAGI / 25 got above the NPC Heroic Strikethrough of the time, and you then got back a fair amount of your dodge chance? It was the difference between tanking bosses and peeling yourself off the walls taking more damage than you had HP, on defensive.

That said, they probably don't ride the line very hard these days... but any time you have a gearcheck number, it trumps all other linear stats(unless its an enormous gain, which as shown hSTA is not), because if you ever do run into mobs that do push the strikethrough, you're going to get your ass handed to you. It should go without saying that you never want to be in a position where the mob drops the majority(or hopefully any) of your dodge chance. Ever. And as the OP posted, that applies to any particular class.

 

[MaxD]

why does everything have to be feeling, do some fucking parsing with max hsta vs hagi vs hdex and come back with numbers

According to magelo the highest and second highest (only warriors)
1 hagi person has 1769 hAGI and 1336 hsta
2 hagi person has 1750 hAGI and 1323 hsta

1 Hsta person has 1983 hsta and 1351 hagi
2 hsta person has 1957 hsta and 1395 hagi

So really its like 520 hsta or 400 hagi at the raid level on a tank so you can get like 9k more hp for a warrior (and these guys are rocking 280k unbuffed) or you can have a marginal difference in being hit, very marginal.

You're welcome to prove that going from 1350 to 1750 hagi is going to be significant, if you have a parse that proves that the hagi makes a significant difference you could convince a lot of people to actually go hagi on their tanks. Since the difference is likely to be less than 1% you probably need a pretty large sample size and since the actual difference is so small you're not going to convince a lot of people.

For me on my paladin I do go hagi for the type 5 augs but for my 7/8 slot I just use what ever has the best ac

I am going to tell you, playing a cleric main for plenty of years you can't tell if the tank is a hagi tank or a hsta tank because you're mashing your heal before you even see them take the damage often. The main difference in tanks is whether or not they hit the buttons that make them take less damage and if they pay enough attention to pick up the adds before the add hits that weak ass mage that for some reason is sitting.


Oh and Hagi is shit on a caster wtf would you want that for, your boxed mage is going to get raped either way.

 

[Gruber]

why does everything have to be feeling, do some fucking parsing with max hsta vs hagi vs hdex and come back with numbers

According to magelo the highest and second highest (only warriors)
1 hagi person has 1769 hAGI and 1336 hsta
2 hagi person has 1750 hAGI and 1323 hsta

1 Hsta person has 1983 hsta and 1351 hagi
2 hsta person has 1957 hsta and 1395 hagi

So really its like 520 hsta or 400 hagi at the raid level on a tank so you can get like 9k more hp for a warrior (and these guys are rocking 280k unbuffed) or you can have a marginal difference in being hit, very marginal.

​

​

The information comes straight from someone at Daybreak and the equations used to calculate it. If you're claiming the dev is lying, say so. If not, accept what you're being told.

As per parsing in game? We could never parse this effect of hAGI. How would you? At least back in the day, the only mobs that exhibited enough heroic Strikethrough to drag your dodge down, would kill you before you even knew you were on it. Remember, the only data parse-monkeys accept is days worth of numbers to even everything out. You can't do that with raid mobs.

And if you pull your hAGI down below a mob's heroic strikethrough, such that it lowers your dodge chance by half, the result will not be marginal. You *will* take significantly more damage. You still may be able to heal through it, particularly if defensive buttons are pressed, given current HP, but you're still taking more damage than you should have and requiring more mana.

​

You're welcome to prove that going from 1350 to 1750 hagi is going to be significant, if you have a parse that proves that the hagi makes a significant difference you could convince a lot of people to actually go hagi on their tanks. Since the difference is likely to be less than 1% you probably need a pretty large sample size and since the actual difference is so small you're not going to convince a lot of people.

You still aren't listening. We have the equations. At that point, parsing is moot lol. We know how it works now. Never in the history of this game has the argument been won where you strip any of you dodge ability, potentially half, in order to add 3% hp. Just lol.

 

[MaxD]

[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]

The information comes straight from someone at Daybreak and the equations used to calculate it. If you're claiming the dev is lying, say so. If not, accept what you're being told.. Remember, the only data parse-monkeys accept is days worth of numbers to even everything out. You can't do that with raid mobs.

I still use hagi because the hp is laughable on a tank but what I'm saying is since we are not given actual numbers of heroic strike through for even trash in an expansion you don't know where that sweet sweet number is that you have to be above. If the sweet number is in the 1200 or 1300 range it might not actually make a difference at the group level.

As for the parse monkeys needing so much data there's a reason. If you wanted to compare 0 Hagi vs 1700 Hagi on a mob from SOD you actually might not need a big dataset because the difference would be so big but when comparing other things you need a lot of data to get to something like 99% + significance level in statistics. If you don't have enough data the person with less Hagi could actually dodge more on a short parse because they got lucky.

Also just because Hagi is designed to be a certain way in the system it doesnt mean there's not some other magical unknown force working against it. There's lots of games not just everquest where 3 months later they're all like hey guys this looks like it hasn't been working! Parsing things and breaking it down gives you the actual vs the expected.

Also since people are hitting 1750 hagi, that means next expansion they might have enough hagi to hit 100% dodge vs things without heroic strikethru. So is there any caps they didnt tell us about or diminishing returns after a certain point?