Request - How should we respond to suspension waves? (7 Viewers)

[Redbot]

I've been talking with a few people about this for months, but ultimately MacroQuest is an open source project, so I'd like to open this conversation to everyone.

How should RedGuides respond to the recent 7-day suspension waves? We don't have the resources of a $300,000,000 company, but we certainly have passion. What should we focus it on?

Some things to keep in mind:

• When reading this thread, you'll notice up ▲ and down ▼ arrows next to each reply. Use them to upvote ideas you agree with.
• While a lot of us are upset about suspensions (people are venting on here and social media) we need to keep in mind that we're EverQuest fans. We're here because of the work and creativity from Darkpaw Games, so please show them respect even if you disagree with their judgement.
• We assume several thousand people use MacroQuest, though this is a very rough estimate as we don't log anything in game nor are we the only distributor. DPG has a much better idea about usage than we do.

EDIT & SUMMARY

If you took the time to vote or reply, thank you. Here's the primary action suggested in every post with at least two votes:

Add detection safeguards to MQ + 149
Communicate with DPG + 101
Boycott / Stop playing altogether + 55
Stay the course / No change +49
Focus on Emu +20
Stop promoting our playstyle +20
Remove Truebox restrictions +9
Add more "anti"-features such as anti-AFK checks. + 7
Turn on safety features by default: audible alerts on say, tell, /ooc camp checks, etc. + 4
lol +2

The highest two suggestions have been heard loud and clear. I imagine an effective boycott would need organization, I'm open to it but not just yet. Staying the course has already been tried . Emulator is attractive for many reasons, and work has already begun on MacroQuest for emu clients. I don't think we'll take down our youtubes or relax truebox restrictions anytime soon. I wouldn't push for anti-features without some type of assurance they'd help our cause. Some safety defaults like those hotpocket suggested will probably be in a commit soon.

Again, thank you all for the replies and for sticking with us to this point. If there are any ideas I missed, or improperly summarized, please reply!

 

[Psy]

Perhaps I explained poorly. My opinion has no basis in what DPG does or does not do. More bans, less bans, all out war of escalation from their side, it doesn’t matter. I personally don’t care what DPG does. I do care about the health of the game, in general, though. And I think the TLPs do bring a lot of money in. So I feel like we’re acting in good faith to honor the wishes there (even if they might feel I’m acting in bad faith by not honoring their wishes in general).

I never agreed with the stance that if you don’t provoke them and give them all your user information, they won’t bite. They will do what they do, regardless of my stance. But I understand their intent with Truebox is to have less people boxing and I’m willing to facilitate that. The flip side of that is I will also still working on making sure we don’t get caught elsewhere. Because I will do what I do, regardless of their stance.

Well spoken!

 

[Grimreefer]

after using mq I cannot go back to regular boxing. I’ve been boxing since I was 9 years old, my dad had 2 computers and I would play the healer often as I was forced to since my dad needed a healer. But when he wasn’t around I played a warrior and healed myself. Im almost 32 now, and mq has made my characters super heros as posted above! I could not possible achieve anything I have achieved in game without mq. I play on FV and you cannot walk through pok without seeing box groups everywhere. You can easily point them out as it’s mostly people who got tired of soloing, made their own box group so they can actually play the damn game. Then they sit them all together in the same spot, and all share the same guild tag, most likely a private guild just for their characters. But even before mq, I was sticking a Bobby pin in my laptop mouse to spam click my clerics clicky leg heals. Players will always find ways to make playing easier, now it’s become the extreme of just pushing play and watching your superhero wreck mobs. But without it, I’d still be under level 100, and I’ve been playing for 20 years!! No other game in history has a 20 year player that cannot reach end game… it’s unheard of. I would have to solo, or be lfg for an entire year, playing 8 hours a day like a full time job just to get anywhere. The problem I see happening…. They keep banning people and driving away players of all kinds. Do you know how many people on my guild rely on my 4 man superhero team to help them farm, level, do quests etc? I also sell power leveling services for plat/krono. I have personally not forced but encouraged 5x tol expansion sales from powerleveling people to max ftp level and also countless krono sales that people buy with cash, to trade for power level. Services that would not even be an option without MQ. So even the players who don’t use it, rely on it unknowingly! Half my guild is unaware I use anything, they just think I’m a fucking super human who can alt tab and click insanely fast. I actually found the program a week after returning to the game. I noticed patterns and googled “EverQuest bot” and red guides was right at the top of the list but most players have absolutely no idea how much they rely on mq even if they don’t use it. Oh your favorite bazaar trader who always has the tradeskill items you need by the thousands? And the only one to have them at that? Most likely farmed with mq..

I’ve also noticed that since the release of mercs, no one chooses to play a healer. Resulting in no one knowing how to play a healer…. Thus no on rolls healers. The ONLY people rolling healers, are those making them for boxes because they NEED a healer other than or better than the merc.. this is probably the biggest game breaking thing they added. If you want to eliminate the need for mq or software like it, you would need to do something drastic like allow mercs to enter raids. Maybe then, people would not feel the need to box so much, or atleast not need the automatic boxing on healers.

Either way. If you removed red guides, mq, or any software like isboxer, etc…. The quality of the game will surely diminish. Most of the boxing community would quit. Resulting in player population crashing drastically.

If there are 1k characters logged into a server, I would assume less than half are actual players. I personally have no less than 4 characters logged in when I play. Just with those numbers, we could assume 1k characters, is really only 200-300 players. No take away ALL of the players boxing and their characters. You are left with 200 or less ACTUAL players. Now spread them out through the levels, and with conflicting play times etc.. who is left to group and grind with??

The game was initially made to rely on high player volume. This is NOT a single player game. Through the years, it has felt more and more like a single player game with the remaining players being mostly those who can play at work, stay at home parents, and the casual players who can only log 1-3 hours a day max…. The game does not have the population needed to still be played like it used to. Thus the reason something like mq was even thought of.

I personally would not mind playing on a jail server I assume there would be lots of like minded individuals who would also populate the server and would be fun to play with. However with everyone saying it would be “lawless” I don’t know if I would agree with that. Im certain there would still be a way we could police the server. As stated new servers often have special rule sets. It wouldn’t be hard to implement a unanimous voting poll. If said player X was going around being a complete A hole, having a way to create a poll about said player and giving everyone the option to suspend them from playing for 7 days, the final vote would have to be greater than 90% of the current players online.. and that player would receive a 7 day suspension. Giving the players the power a gm would have and allowing us to police ourselves. Im certain there would be ways to abuse this as well, but with certain policies in place, I do believe it would be possible for a jail server to become a paradise. No one wants the absolute lawlessness that we believe a jail server would have.

 

[Grimreefer]

A jail server with private pick options So no one can enter your zone pick unless grouped, or in raid, fellowship etc (permission) so many options here…. I would be down for an all out strike I would simply sit all my characters in guild lobby, only log on my main… and tell my guild im no longer helping/playing until mq is allowed. I know for a fact atleast 20 non-mq players would take sides with boxers just to have me back in their groups.

I box but I’m also very social, and I only box because without boxing, I’d get no where. I always kick my boxes to make room for actual players! Then use my boxes as oog support.

 

[lanceval]

I agree to the comments pointing that eventually it is all about money and profits.
The impact on revenue could take about a year to really appear in full.
It is not realistic to expect any change from DPG in the short term.
At this point if no one started a meaningful communication with DPG, then may be it is better to stop trying and look for other alternative like EMU.
I think it would be nice to have a rg emu server and
depending on its popularity to reassess.

 

[madruk20]

this is absolutely without question not what we want. prison servers don't work. even Holly mentioned this when we were all discussing making Rizlona possible.

I'm not so sure. We had a dude 54 boxing and warping to OW raid targets on Rizlona with pretty much zero repercussions from classic to velious. The only reason he got caught in the end is because he got greedy and woke the Sleeper, and it caused a backlash. I've watched warping and hacks pretty much from the get go from others that are still playing to this day. Their actual policing of the server was pretty light to begin with even with the "dedicated" GM era. I think the only argument you can make against a no police server is it allows people to grief you in OW zones. I'd honestly trade that for being able to play without worrying if I'm going to get banned after putting years of work into my characters.

I dont think Drunder from EQ2 is a good example because the population of EQ2 is a fraction of EQ's (and they're both small to begin with) and the actual policing of things like Ogre was fairly light. You didn't really have a good reason to go there when there was a tiny chance you'd get caught, and even then you'd have to be afking 24/7. If they start heavily enforcing third party program usage on EQ I think a no police server will look alot more appealing to alot of people.

How many people here have rerolled their characters over the years because they got banned at some point? I'd wager it's a pretty significant amount.

 

[ascensi0n]

I'm not so sure. We had a dude 54 boxing and warping to OW raid targets on Rizlona with pretty much zero repercussions from classic to velious. The only reason he got caught in the end is because he got greedy and woke the Sleeper, and it caused a backlash. I've watched warping and hacks pretty much from the get go from others that are still playing to this day. Their actual policing of the server was pretty light to begin with even with the "dedicated" GM era. I think the only argument you can make against a no police server is it allows people to grief you in OW zones. I'd honestly trade that for being able to play without worrying if I'm going to get banned after putting years of work into my characters.

I dont think Drunder from EQ2 is a good example because the population of EQ2 is a fraction of EQ's (and they're both small to begin with) and the actual policing of things like Ogre was fairly light. You didn't really have a good reason to go there when there was a tiny chance you'd get caught, and even then you'd have to be afking 24/7. If they start heavily enforcing third party program usage on EQ I think a no police server will look alot more appealing to alot of people.

How many people here have rerolled their characters over the years because they got banned at some point? I'd wager it's a pretty significant amount.

he was 36 boxing and his name was Blame. great post otherwise.

 

[EQChick]

I have been pondering this situation while rubbing bengay on my wrists.

- I do not believe DB has mastered some new cheat detection. I believe they stumped upon certain "oddities" while looking to address the latency problem.
- I think DB sees MQ as a contributing factor to their latency problem.

I am wrong very often and these are just my thoughts. I would like to see some talks continue with DB like in the past (if that is even possible - probably isn't, but one can dream).

 

[Sifter228]

- I think DB sees MQ as a contributing factor to their latency problem.

That's not possible. VV only functions locally and doesn't "communicate" with EQ servers. The most it does is:
Authenticate your VV build as paid
Send crash reports to RG

Not sure why this isn't a valid post on topic and correct information. There's no way VV causes server latency.

 

[Redmonkey]

Whatever Dreamweaver or Holly said is no longer valid. Unless she gets sent back here after her fall from grace again. But I don't see current staff endorsing anything those two said.

 

[Saetun]

That's not possible. VV only functions locally and doesn't "communicate" with EQ servers. The most it does is:
Authenticate your VV build as paid
Send crash reports to RG

Not sure why this isn't a valid post on topic and correct information. There's no way VV causes server latency.

It certainly could be a factor. They have stated on the forums that the latency is being caused by the number of actions in a given timeframe and the calculations necessary as a result. Being that MQ can perform actions faster than a human, someone using plugins/macros is a greater contributor to latency than a normal player.

 

[Sifter228]

It certainly could be a factor. They have stated on the forums that the latency is being caused by the number of actions in a given timeframe and the calculations necessary as a result. Being that MQ can perform actions faster than a human, someone using plugins/macros is a greater contributor to latency than a normal player.

As a boxer before I was a VV user, I would send hundreds of "wrong" commands to the server to just get the one command I wanted. For me at least the boxing without VV solution was to use 5 line macros in EQ to an insane extent to get my box to do what I needed it to, when I needed it to. VV reduces the number of server communications compared to alt tab boxing.

I hope one of the devs chimes in here.

 

[Jetanroth]

Sorry I was raised on Tallon Zek. MQ just added a whole other level of grief. Fuck those idiots.
If you were using MQ in a way to grief or kill steal raid mobs I would report you immediately.

Unfortunately ANY report of an MQer to DPG effects the whole MQ community negatively. When DPG is assessing how much "cheaters" are effecting the game, I suspect it is very likely they quantify how many "player complaints" they are recieving about cheating.

Any report of an MQer to DPG, regardless of your reason, just adds to their list of violations. It likely makes the problem seem worse than it really is by flooding more reports into their system.

 

[blueadept]

Let's pretend its 2004 again and DPG is the enemy. Let's re-learn using it can get you banned at any time. Protect yourself.

1. If you see people using MQ stupidly or obviously, report them.
2. Check and answer your tells. If you missed one just say you lost it in battle spam.
3. Don't camp live zones in the newest expansion bogarting named 24/7 for 3 days straight.
4. If idiots, self appointed EQ police, are watching you ask them to leave. If they don't log.
5. You don't need to be max level and AA's in 2 days. If you afk do it in old out of the way zones. Your toons will max out eventually.
6. Don't MQ on True Box and TLP. The normal players are the loudest whiniest bunch of cry babies in gaming. DPG listens to vocal minority of complaints of PAYING customers.
7. Play smart. Think about what you are doing with MQ. If it interrupts or ruins other people's fun you are going to get reported.

1st rule of fight club
DO NOT TALK ABOUT MACROQUEST.
2nd rule of fight club
DO NOT TALK ABOUT MACROQUEST.

I saw I am repeating a few things that Szazor wrote early I just read the entire thread but you get the idea.

This didn't work for me. I had a bunch of accounts I made in 2014 (when they gave away Heroic upgrades). I decided to replace 1 group member in my 90s group and I brought that account out of retirement. It was FTP so I kronoed it to hope to turn it to silver. I gave it about 2 weeks before I started using it. I only did heroic adventures (not gribbles) and only about 1 per day for a week during the double xp. After the double xp week, I stopped for about 3 days. Go to log back in, suspended (Was suspended on a Monday, didn't know until the middle of the week). Checked the email on that account and verified "Cheating". Checked all the other accounts in that group, not suspended. Only one that got hit was the un-retired lvl 87 gold (kronoed) account. I had 2 days left on my krono after it came out of 7 day suspension (it did turn silver).

It wasn't them going back though the logs because the account was unused before. All were running ihc mercs and only ihc mercs (plus what ever it needs to run), mqsay, and relay tells (which it didnt get any). It wasn't the account driving or initiating mq commands. It was just a bot in the group. It was never used outside of the group. IHC was not loaded until in the instance and unloaded before leaving the instance.

Explain that one? I sure the hell cant. For some reason, it was flagged and suspended. It is frustrating because I can't figure it out.

 

[Gohast]

This didn't work for me. I had a bunch of accounts I made in 2014 (when they gave away Heroic upgrades). I decided to replace 1 group member in my 90s group and I brought that account out of retirement. It was FTP so I kronoed it to hope to turn it to silver. I gave it about 2 weeks before I started using it. I only did heroic adventures (not gribbles) and only about 1 per day for a week during the double xp. After the double xp week, I stopped for about 3 days. Go to log back in, suspended (Was suspended on a Monday, didn't know until the middle of the week). Checked the email on that account and verified "Cheating". Checked all the other accounts in that group, not suspended. Only one that got hit was the un-retired lvl 87 gold (kronoed) account. I had 2 days left on my krono after it came out of 7 day suspension (it did turn silver).

It wasn't them going back though the logs because the account was unused before. All were running ihc mercs and only ihc mercs (plus what ever it needs to run), mqsay, and relay tells (which it didnt get any). It wasn't the account driving or initiating mq commands. It was just a bot in the group. It was never used outside of the group. IHC was not loaded until in the instance and unloaded before leaving the instance.

Explain that one? I sure the hell cant. For some reason, it was flagged and suspended. It is frustrating because I can't figure it out.

I think they're after all accounts associated with flagged accounts. My brother who has never used MQ traded me a krono and was also suspended.

 

[an_image]

I think they're after all accounts associated with flagged accounts. My brother who has never used MQ traded me a krono and was also suspended.

I'd love to see that table lol...must be like a venn diagram that takes up more than half their server populations for sure

Kind of makes me think about Barney's Hot/Crazy scale...

 

[Ohgoditsjenny]

My thought would be basically this: Consider fallback positions while still trying to get dialog going with DBG. RG has a lot of great programmers/devs, and if they got a wild hair to see what they could do to help get closer to live like feature wise, it'd go towards solidifying an alternative if DBG is unwilling to budge.

Honestly, I really do wish we could get DBG to work with you all, I'd love it if they helped us continue to give them money.

 

[blueadept]

I think they're after all accounts associated with flagged accounts. My brother who has never used MQ traded me a krono and was also suspended.

Nope. Was a virgin account. Nothing associated with that account was flagged. Added my wifes credit card and purchased the krono. It was not associated with any other account nor has ever been flagged.

 

[ascensi0n]

That's not possible. VV only functions locally and doesn't "communicate" with EQ servers. The most it does is:
Authenticate your VV build as paid
Send crash reports to RG

Not sure why this isn't a valid post on topic and correct information. There's no way VV causes server latency.

Every connected client causes additional latency.
Clients running MQ that are sending more requests per second than a standard user are, in turn, adding more server load per client than a normal user.
Misconfigured MQ clients/macros/plugins can spam requests at an insane rate.

 

[microscope]

I hate DBG, negative respect, same for SOE. EQ was a masterpiece made by people who are no longer involved with it. Everyone else has proven for decades they have no clue how to replicate it, they have no idea what made it almost a household name to begin with and what made it special, or even what separates it from every other MMO. They proved this with failure after failure and syphoned EQ's profits down that huge ravenous toilet. They disrespected and damaged their own creation, and their own audience, as they did every step of the game's life, pioneering concepts like microtransactions and p2w all at the expense of their game and their players. I always thought of them as one of the worst companies ever, stumbled into a one hit wonder and then pissed it all up the wall in the most disgusting fashion. The whole idea of this "Truebox" thing is completely idiotic, and just another example of why they are a morons and don't deserve to be in business. It is indefensibly stupid, as is everything they do. All their crappy fly by night TLPs and just everything. They suck. I know everyone loves EQ and you wanted us to respect the creation or whatever, but I've played EQ since 1999 and never felt any different. I see it like a child, the most wonderful child prodigy, but it's parents are pure trash. I like my EQ Emu, it can feel solitary but there are other multiplayer games for me. But I like having the pure EQ experience without worrying about some idiotic GM team watching over me and making stupid choices and making money off me in the process. I have no part in this, but I don't think they deserve your money or efforts. My advice would be to fight against them.

 

[Sifter228]

I hate DBG, negative respect, same for SOE.

EQ was alwsys a beautiful disaster. From the start (Verant) to about Kunark. BMc was high when he worked on EQ and JS was a ridged "No." Type leader. You would not believe how shoddy EQ was on release. The down time. The ques. The exploits the patch that had a virus, you wouldn't believe what they let out the door.

It's the Skinner Box. http://progressquest.com/It's become progress quest.

Every connected client causes additional latency.
Clients running MQ that are sending more requests per second than a standard user are, in turn, adding more server load per client than a normal user.
Misconfigured MQ clients/macros/plugins can spam requests at an insane rate.

A programmable keyboard and game pad is what we use when we "Box". I can get close to VV but I have to be at the keyboard at least in my case. Trust me VV is way cleaner.

 

[Aipoc76]

If it wasn't for MQ, i would of quit a long time ago. The fun in the game for me is the coding, Creating my own little simplified AI game robots, is a lot of fun. It has it challenges, but when it all works right it's worth it. DPG has gotten hundreds if not thousands off me over the years due to MQ. They would be absolutely stupid to kill this community. And to be honest all they should really care about is their bottom line. What gets them more money.

I sure do hope some of the key leaders make some sort of agreement, as losing MQ would put a big hole in my boring life. I would be forced to find some new game that's too easy, rewards the losers with gear, and i can turn my keyboard upside down and stand on it and win. Oh wait that WoW.. already beat that game.

But to answer the question of this thread, what should we do? Red have you attempted at just talking to them, seeing what their demands are, is there any wiggle room, is there some sort of accord that can be struck. Dialog is the first step, and if that's not been taken, you need to try and arrange a meeting with the powers that be, Here's a starting list. Sorry numbers not included.

• Jennifer Chan. Head of Studio at Darkpaw Games.
• Rick Randolph.
• Melissa Comeau. Associate Game Designer at Darkpaw Games.
• Robyn Vallee. Associate Game Designer at Darkpaw Games.

** Talking points could be:
- Plugins they hate.
- Concessions you can make for truebox and abiding to their wishes.
- Guaranteeing no active hacks or game breaking abilities / code will be offered.
- Maximum allowed toons to be boxed by 1 user. (this should be a no brainer, more accounts owned = more $$ they get).
- Protections you can implement in the code to ensure no unauthorised plugins are used.

Just a few brainstorming ideas.


And if all else fails, Start looking at how to set up a RG EMU server that's ran and controlled and subbed to by this community.

 

[hotpocket]

There are two topics going on here a) what you can do b) what RG can do.

I whole heartedly agree with all the sentiments of taking responsibility yourself for the things you can control. That will be different things for people but anything that makes you less obvious and/or applies financial pressure to dpg I would support.

Regards what RG can do.
1) more can be done to encourage responsible play. Specifically, detection tools coming pre-configured by default in a best use setup for new users (so they don't miss /say /tells /ooc camp checks) and more visible tutorials for these tools.
2) general humanisation of VV. Specifically, random emotes between group members to mimic interaction. Have chars fidget, jump, duck, just do something. The option to engage a target at a random point in a mobs health %, you could even weight it for extra redcents. A random time delay before returning to camp. A random variation for a chars camp spot. And my no1 hate when I am running pullertank and that char will always return to camp before going off to pull, irrespective of my settings.

We, as a community, just need to get a bit better at being unseen.

 

[Jetanroth]

Everyone else has proven for decades they have no clue how to replicate it.....

In my opinion that is simply because it CANNOT be replicated. I think that EQ was the perfect nexus of gamer mentality with gameplay that could have ONLY happened in the late 90's. I really dont think it can ever happen again.

Think about it, most of us grew up on DnD or other table top RPGs that were incredibly challenging. To get a DnD character to lev 18 literally took a miracle. We were mentally primed for shit to be HARD as fuck, to scrounge and work like a freak to make one tiny advancement in your character, to have an evil DM set traps for you spelling certain death at every turn.

When EQ came out this played right into our mindset! It was perfect! No fucking map at all! A sense heading skill that actually had to be leveled up and at low levels was worth FUCK ALl. Spells fizzling left and right just when you need them to save your life! Moving one zone out of your start zone by yourself was nearly a certain death sentence. Do you remember literally sitting at your computer drawing out maps of Befallen with a pencil and graph paper? Do you remember the agonizing corpse runs through Tox, losing ALL of your gear because you couldn't successfully CR before corpse faded? In today's terms, the shit was nuts. The Gamers of today don't have any time or inclination to mess with something savage like that. But for us, it literally HOOKED us on the game. The difficulty, the incremental success, the sense of genuine satisfaction when you hear the "Ding!". That shit, for us was CRACK for our kind of mindset and we ate it up with a spoon!

But, today, you don't have a sea of gamers primed for something like that. I suspect that it was a single moment in time where the universe aligned with the perfect Gamers tothe perfect Game to entice them like nothing ever had before. Now, we are all addicts so even though the game has grown faaar from those roots, we are still deeply invested. I play all kinds of games, FPS, RTS and RPG but EQ is still the ONLY MMORPG that I play, nothing has enticed me since EQ.

Who knows. Never say never. But, I think the EQ phenominon can't be duplicated.

 

[Sum1]

If it wasn't for MQ, i would of quit a long time ago. The fun in the game for me is the coding, Creating my own little simplified AI game robots, is a lot of fun. It has it challenges, but when it all works right it's worth it. DPG has gotten hundreds if not thousands off me over the years due to MQ. They would be absolutely stupid to kill this community. And to be honest all they should really care about is their bottom line. What gets them more money.

I sure do hope some of the key leaders make some sort of agreement, as losing MQ would put a big hole in my boring life. I would be forced to find some new game that's too easy, rewards the losers with gear, and i can turn my keyboard upside down and stand on it and win. Oh wait that WoW.. already beat that game.

But to answer the question of this thread, what should we do? Red have you attempted at just talking to them, seeing what their demands are, is there any wiggle room, is there some sort of accord that can be struck. Dialog is the first step, and if that's not been taken, you need to try and arrange a meeting with the powers that be, Here's a starting list. Sorry numbers not included.

• Jennifer Chan. Head of Studio at Darkpaw Games.
• Rick Randolph.
• Melissa Comeau. Associate Game Designer at Darkpaw Games.
• Robyn Vallee. Associate Game Designer at Darkpaw Games.

** Talking points could be:
- Plugins they hate.
- Concessions you can make for truebox and abiding to their wishes.
- Guaranteeing no active hacks or game breaking abilities / code will be offered.
- Maximum allowed toons to be boxed by 1 user. (this should be a no brainer, more accounts owned = more $$ they get).
- Protections you can implement in the code to ensure no unauthorised plugins are used.

Just a few brainstorming ideas.


And if all else fails, Start looking at how to set up a RG EMU server that's ran and controlled and subbed to by this community.

Keep in mind that MQ is open source. Red doesn’t speak for the entirety of the MQ community, so he can’t exactly speak for or negotiate for the entire community. He would need to be clear who he represents or the major compile sites need to come together and negotiate as a block.

 

[Restina]

Perhaps I explained poorly. My opinion has no basis in what DPG does or does not do. More bans, less bans, all out war of escalation from their side, it doesn’t matter. I personally don’t care what DPG does. I do care about the health of the game, in general, though. And I think the TLPs do bring a lot of money in. So I feel like we’re acting in good faith to honor the wishes there (even if they might feel I’m acting in bad faith by not honoring their wishes in general).

I never agreed with the stance that if you don’t provoke them and give them all your user information, they won’t bite. They will do what they do, regardless of my stance. But I understand their intent with Truebox is to have less people boxing and I’m willing to facilitate that. The flip side of that is I will also still working on making sure we don’t get caught elsewhere. Because I will do what I do, regardless of their stance.

As someone that has played on the last half dozen rounds of TLP’s there isn’t a guild that doesn’t have at least 25% of their users with an MQ compile. At their launch. They are either self compiling RG since it’s about ten lines of text to add those in or it’s some other compile hacked together that has warps. Lastly some use eqbot which is terrible. They are doing so with very ‘dirty data’ back to the servers I assume.

Think of it like this. In most countries we’ve given up completely and said that teenagers will have sex. So we give them all the education and safety measures we can to help prevent long term problems. RG is sitting here with our hands over our eyes thinking that if we don’t allow it nobody is. That if we respect some kind of escalation that DPG will go easier on us. MQ usage on Truebox servers is just as prevalent as it is on live though, you’re just letting the bad actors profit from it at the same time.


I’ll never play a TLP again and I also know how to self compile. I don’t have a horse in that debate because I’m not arguing that we need to or should. I’m saying that the arguments that a lot of people are using are based on a lack of information due to not being active in that community.

 

[Knightly]

We can take a stance on something and have our own beliefs regardless of what other people do. The people who were paying for MQ2Ic cracks in the past and are paying for bypasses now may be feeding into someone's profit, but that doesn't impact me at all. It's also not my responsibility to keep teach people how to use MQ on Truebox safely. Nor is it RedGuides imperative to change the stance "because people are already doing it."

The teenage sex analogy doesn't work, unless your assumption is that teenagers without education are paying prostitutes it's really not equivalent here. Nor are there societal equivocations in illicitness and it also doesn't work because there's no appeal to authority like you're implying with DPG. Teenage sex wasn't illegal prior to education, though I will give you that there are consequences.

If you wanted a real world equivalence, you're probably better off going with drug use or gun control over sex. You can relate that to state law versus federal law and RedGuides can be a state and then you can say what other states and eventually other countries are doing. But, as I've said at least twice now, my stance isn't my stance because I think "DPG will go easier on us" -- it's never been about that for me. So that line of thought is already coming from a place of misconception.

But I also disagree with you that MQ usage on Truebox is just as prevalent as it is on live. I can appreciate your experience, but I also know where your experience comes from and I believe that skews your viewpoint. Regardless of all that, we're talking in the RedGuides Community and I guarantee if we took a poll of "Are you using MQ on Truebox?" the vast majority regardless of capability or otherwise would say "no." So I posit: RedGuides contains the majority of MacroQuest users, the majority of RedGuides does not use MacroQuest on Truebox. Therefore, it cannot be as prevalent on Truebox as it is on Live for the simple fact that the majority of the majority aren't in that group.

But that's neither here nor there with my opinion on why we shouldn't support a boxing software on a server designed for not boxing. And my opinion is just that, one opinion, I was explaining why I have that opinion but if I were you I wouldn't put too much weight on it. There are lots of other opinions and while my stance on it is what it is, I don't feel extremely strongly about it other than I believe that boxing on a Truebox server at the start hurts more than it helps.

 

[Redemption44]

I think it's been 6 months since i've played eq unsubbed my 7 accounts and just concentrating on survival during this pandemic. I was suspended for 7 days and that was the nail in the coffin so it was a month or 2 later i unsubbed. I am happy playing virtual reality games and doing other things that are less costly than eq. I might be back if they ever decide to stop banning or suspending people for 3rd party software. peace out.

 

[Zeusdracco]

to me its very simple. money talks. period.
ive switched to wow...

they no longer have my 8 subs paying towards their coffers. this is a witch hunt pure and simple.

They should have at least made an attempt to understand why people box. instead they simply targeted us and said enjoy your time off for cheating. I ate my suspension... didnt play for 2 weeks.. and then they suspended my other 7 accounts... btw, thats 3 different email addies.. mine and a couple friends. so they are absolutely targeting ISP's once they hit your first account. Im totally cool with paying my punishment. im not cool with being punished again when i have clearly been towing the line.

Im good with whatever you guys come up with to combat this.

Personally i think a formal letter should be written and signed by us all and sent to them explaining exactly why we box... i doubt having an understanding of why would change anything but u cant say WE tried if nobody told them what to try to fix.

for me.. true box is fine at lower lv. it wasn't exactly difficult, at higher levels good luck. which means u need a group.. u need some form of CC, u need a slower ( unless u r uber geared, but lets be honest, most of us box because we don't raid )
U need heals.. u need a tank.. u could probably use some dps.. mercs are absolutely trash at higher levels. i suppose healer is ok as long as u r pulling singles.. tank same... anyway...

mercs dont cut it, u cant control/slow/heal/taunt a mob at the same time these days ( after u somehow pull it/them to camp... before they wipe your group ) even if u have good macros, u still need a human to operate at least 1 function. so u need groups...

that right there is why i Box... groups... find a way to create common ground so we can go back to grouping and enjoying the game the way it was meant to be played. Don't call us cheaters because we had to adapt how we play so its a playable game after u change some of what made it playable... My only perspective is this. make groups a thing again. find a way to make that happen.

I absolutely love eq. always have. want to play. want to give my money to play... they need to make this possible.

I mean, ya i can true box and kill trash all day... I can also just go upstairs and watch rerun netflix trash in 50 shades of remake on a theme in g minor.

I really think rather than being combative we should take an approach to help them understand the community and what it offers them as well. straight up, i cant see Eq being around right now if it wasn't for entities like RG. This site is a perfect example of what eq was originally. it was a very connected helpful and enjoyable community of like minded people, and the occasional troll.

they may have paid 300 million dollars, nobody gives away their money just to watch it go up in flames. they need reasoning, honesty and some understanding from us to hopefully show them there are actual benefits from having an engaged community in their game, helping it to grow, rather than bleeding it dry. ( which i have never gotten the impression RG does )

There is so much this community has to offer, we just need to put it in words they can understand.

( at least, i hope ?! )

Anyway, didn't mean for this to be more than 10 words when i stopped to type. GN guys. cya tomorrow

 

[Coldblooded]

I think there are at least a couple of ways you can read into the question posed at the start of this mega thread. One, which many did was to look at the "we" in "how should we respond to suspension waves" and think "me". How can I personally respond, or how can you personally respond. My thought moves in a direction of Redguides. Sort of like what if I helped to deliver a product that nobody wanted anymore, or that wasn't cool anymore, or in our case, the use of the product is becoming a liability so great that users are walking away. Of course, this is speculation - only Red and other insiders know the true numbers, just like all the speculation about DBG is just that as well.

My idea stems a bit from numbers I DO know. The other day I was adding the official Everquest Discord server and stumbled upon this:



Of course, RedGuides is first - it's the best! But I noticed that Project 1999 has MORE members than the official Everquest Server. No this does not, of course, mean there are more people playing Project 1999 than Everquest - but it does show they for sure aren't dead. And there are at least 3998 users that just might like to use MQ and the tooling that Red provides.

Just to check things out I went to Project Lazarus yesterday and downloaded the old client, set up things, etc - and I can tell you from that experience, that the EMU community needs some attention from Redguides. I know there's an EMU version of MQ2 - and I know MQ is working on a new version of MQ for EMU, but beyond that, there is a LOT of work that could be captured and monetized and grown, which would help the community overall.

So one thing I think "we" could do as a community in light of the suspension bans is to show a bit of love to a community, that in some cases not only tolerates, but welcomes MQ with open arms, and it appears we treat them like red-haired stepchildren.

 

[Sifter228]

I'd assumed everyone who got suspended cancelled all their accounts. Everyone who got suspended stopped giving DBG money?

 

[B_I_G__D_A_D_D_Y]

My idea stems a bit from numbers I DO know. The other day I was adding the official Everquest Discord server and stumbled upon this:

I found this interesting. Let's assume that the Redguides community is twice as likely to join Discord than the base Everquest population.

Under these assumptions the Redguides population would be [2837 / (10471 * 2)] or roughly 13.5% of the EQ population. That informs me that the Redquides population could seriously impact DBG's bottom line if enough of us cancel our subscriptions. It wouldn't just be a drop in the bucket to them.

Food for thought...

 

[virtuoso65]

• Work on detection methods.
• Reduce EQ interaction as much as possible, switching targets, clicking things etc.

All 9 of my accounts were 7 day suspended, only 3 of those accounts have even been logged in in the last 2 years, two of those accounts were running muleassist in group with my main who is run on a totally separate computer and has never run a macro but does have MQ2 loaded to run the BC commands. I never run unattended, I only run the muleassist macro for those 2 other toons, I do not use the map to target things far away etc. I have tried to play as low profile as possible. I have cancelled my accounts.

 

[Klunk]

just wondering all you folks that have canceled multiple accounts did you tell them why? otherwise they will just think people bored of playing

 

[Psy]

just wondering all you folks that have canceled multiple accounts did you tell them why? otherwise they will just think people bored of playing

Yes, you get a survey emailed to the verified email address. For multiple accounts, just vary the wording but basically canceling for their poor actions

 

[deathlock]

I think it's been 6 months since i've played eq unsubbed my 7 accounts and just concentrating on survival during this pandemic. I was suspended for 7 days and that was the nail in the coffin so it was a month or 2 later i unsubbed. I am happy playing virtual reality games and doing other things that are less costly than eq. I might be back if they ever decide to stop banning or suspending people for 3rd party software. peace out.

I did the same thing. Unsubbed 7 accts. Maybe when things are back to the "Status Quo". I will come back. Honestly, I found other things to spend my money on and I am enjoying them immensely.

 

[lanceval]

I think we should respond by mooning.
That is an ancient tradition in rugby.
I am pretty sure brits or rugby players understand.
For the Americans this how it looks.

 

[Jetanroth]

I found this interesting. Let's assume that the Redguides community is twice as likely to join Discord than the base Everquest population.

Under these assumptions the Redguides population would be [2837 / (10471 * 2)] or roughly 13.5% of the EQ population. That informs me that the Redquides population could seriously impact DBG's bottom line if enough of us cancel our subscriptions. It wouldn't just be a drop in the bucket to them.

Food for thought...

Why would RG people be twice as likely to join Discord? I'm not being a smart ass. I am legit curious about your assessment on it.

I feel like pretty much all Gamers, whether on RG or not use Discord, what do you think sets us apart over here on RG in your opinion?

 

[Knightly]

While I disagree with the math, my guess is the reasoning is because Discord is where people mainly go for real time support.

 

[Naeeldar]

While I disagree with the math, my guess is the reasoning is because Discord is where people mainly go for real time support.

Math is obviously all educated guesses and hypothesis. That said I’ve always believed/maintained that the bottom line is impacted by this community whether it’s driving more krono purchases overall as a by-product of the community and/or store purchases + multi accounts. Is it 30% of revenue? Probably not but it wouldn’t surprise me if we are responsible for 10-20% of revenue. And in aging product like this the recurring revenue is key.

It’s also why I believe we haven’t seen banning at large. It’s not like the majority will give up using MQ. Too much of a pain. The line may have shifted but they still don’t want us to be gone or we wold see far more bans happening.

 

[B_I_G__D_A_D_D_Y]

While I disagree with the math, my guess is the reasoning is because Discord is where people mainly go for real time support.

You nailed part of my reasoning. The other part is that Redguides users have already proven they're willing to step out of their comfort zone. Over the years I've helped a lot of people with Everquest problems and many of them can barely figure out how to Google a problem and test the results. So, I have no doubt that Redguides users as a community are more likely to be on Discord than an average EQ player. 2 times? Hell, it could be 4 times! That's all conjecture on my part.

But even if you decide I'm off by a significant amount, the point is that we aren't a trivial population. And a few percentage points difference in gross margin can cause heartburn in a management team that has to answer to shareholders.