Request - How should we respond to suspension waves? (3 Viewers)

[Redbot]

I've been talking with a few people about this for months, but ultimately MacroQuest is an open source project, so I'd like to open this conversation to everyone.

How should RedGuides respond to the recent 7-day suspension waves? We don't have the resources of a $300,000,000 company, but we certainly have passion. What should we focus it on?

Some things to keep in mind:

• When reading this thread, you'll notice up ▲ and down ▼ arrows next to each reply. Use them to upvote ideas you agree with.
• While a lot of us are upset about suspensions (people are venting on here and social media) we need to keep in mind that we're EverQuest fans. We're here because of the work and creativity from Darkpaw Games, so please show them respect even if you disagree with their judgement.
• We assume several thousand people use MacroQuest, though this is a very rough estimate as we don't log anything in game nor are we the only distributor. DPG has a much better idea about usage than we do.

EDIT & SUMMARY

If you took the time to vote or reply, thank you. Here's the primary action suggested in every post with at least two votes:

Add detection safeguards to MQ + 149
Communicate with DPG + 101
Boycott / Stop playing altogether + 55
Stay the course / No change +49
Focus on Emu +20
Stop promoting our playstyle +20
Remove Truebox restrictions +9
Add more "anti"-features such as anti-AFK checks. + 7
Turn on safety features by default: audible alerts on say, tell, /ooc camp checks, etc. + 4
lol +2

The highest two suggestions have been heard loud and clear. I imagine an effective boycott would need organization, I'm open to it but not just yet. Staying the course has already been tried . Emulator is attractive for many reasons, and work has already begun on MacroQuest for emu clients. I don't think we'll take down our youtubes or relax truebox restrictions anytime soon. I wouldn't push for anti-features without some type of assurance they'd help our cause. Some safety defaults like those hotpocket suggested will probably be in a commit soon.

Again, thank you all for the replies and for sticking with us to this point. If there are any ideas I missed, or improperly summarized, please reply!

 

[MacroMark]

so i went to the eq forums to see what all is being said on there. dear god that place is more toxic then a nuke test site that was a landfill before testing.

Good description! Yeah, they always have been a place for toxic zealots to thrive. There is SOME good content there though, if you can stand it long enough to find.

 

[MacroMark]

It's pretty amazing to see so much passion about something they know so little about. It's really like seeing people who read books about EQ talking about EQ, even though they've never actually played EQ.

Lots of good ideas there if you've been playing for a month and tons of bad ideas and info if you've been playing for a few years.

As usual you said it better

 

[microscope]

In that case, can you elaborate on what you didn't appreciate about it? I definitely wasn't trying to offend anyone, just stating my opinion on it.

Because it was platitudes like a reddit post. And it was at the expense of my post. It's also terrible manners/netiquette to reply to a post making that many points and you go to town on one point and disregard everything else in the post.

My point which you ignored is that they completely disrespected YOUR GAME by stealing all the huge profits that it made. It could have completely changed EQs future (now past), but instead you got nickel and dimed for every spell slot and bank slot, and farmed like chickens for 28 copy paste expansions from a team of interns. Meanwhile all EQs profit and energy was spent on this huge list of crap, and that's the people we are dealing with yet nobody seems to be honest about it. They are a terrible company that disrespected the game and the community a million times and in million ways, and over many games. They also basically stole from us what happened with Vanguard. If I ever meet Smedley that mf personally owes me about $200... SOE has always been terrible and it's now been taken over by some Russian mafia money. The fact anyone holds any sort of reverence for them is annoying and ignorant of history. None of these fools had anything to do with EQ, they just inherited it. They are a terrible company, treat their customers terribly, anyone who goes along with it or gives them any money is an enabler.

Also what you said was annoying to read. Most of us who loved early EQ have had to suffer two decades and thousands of shitty MMOs, that all completely ignored EQ. They are all happy to steal the concept, but they do it the WoW way, the anti-EQ way. So everything has quest hubs and GPS maps and sparkly icons over everything and pay to win, and no corpse runs and no sense heading and none of that stuff you listed in your post that was supposed to be impossible to reproduce... Yet we have whole new genres like Souls clones and roguelikes and things designed for people who like harshness.

 

[Redmonkey]

Yeah, Bentio is a troll crusader on a mission. Which is why I think they should have a forum for All Access feedback only. All these F2P accounts people just create to play ForumQuest, maybe take some feedback from the paying customers and see how the view shifts.

All Access has nothing to do with trolls. One can have many All Access accounts and be one of the top trolls over there. They can change the "new member" label in settings.

 

[lanceval]

Yeah. He was a major PITA on the EQ2 forums before he found his way on EQ.
He also happens to spread his nonsense on other forums once he finds out that he is being talked about ... so expect him in here "soon"

That would be so funny!
I am preparing the popcorn!

 

[MadaSnave]

he would have to pay for RG/MQ2/VV to get to this thread. Would love to see him here... -thought this was under level 2 i am wrong.

 

[Many_Whelps]

Yeah. He was a major PITA on the EQ2 forums before he found his way on EQ.
He also happens to spread his nonsense on other forums once he finds out that he is being talked about ... so expect him in here "soon"

If you can get him to post here, I'll cover his level 2 access. I know it's a waste, though. He'll get his dumb ass banned in less than 2 hours.

 

[Knightly]

All Access has nothing to do with trolls. One can have many All Access accounts and be one of the top trolls over there. They can change the "new member" label in settings.

Oh, no, I know people will still troll. But paying for a second account to post what you want to say mostly falls in the favor of boxers. Versus posting under random free to play accounts.

Because it was platitudes like a reddit post. And it was at the expense of my post. It's also terrible manners/netiquette to reply to a post making that many points and you go to town on one point and disregard everything else in the post.

I didn’t take that post at all the way you took it, just for a different perspective.

 

[Redmonkey]

he would have to pay for RG/MQ2/VV to get to this thread. Would love to see him here... -thought this was under level 2 i am wrong.

Actually we can give him red cents which will give him level 2 and allow him to see and respond. Someone even offered. I would really like to see this!!!!

 

[Tangtown]

Actually we can give him red cents which will give him level 2 and allow him to see and respond. Someone even offered. I would really like to see this!!!!

He is like one of those toys where you pull the cord and it says something. Seems neat until you realize there is only 3 or 4 presets. I am confident there is nothing new he has to say.

 

[Redbot]

Just to check things out I went to Project Lazarus yesterday and downloaded the old client, set up things, etc - and I can tell you from that experience, that the EMU community needs some attention from Redguides. I know there's an EMU version of MQ2 - and I know MQ is working on a new version of MQ for EMU, but beyond that, there is a LOT of work that could be captured and monetized and grown, which would help the community overall.

So one thing I think "we" could do as a community in light of the suspension bans is to show a bit of love to a community, that in some cases not only tolerates, but welcomes MQ with open arms, and it appears we treat them like red-haired stepchildren.

I've been thinking about this post for a week now and would like to hear more. It's probably worth a new thread. PM'ing you

 

[microscope]

Oh, no, I know people will still troll. But paying for a second account to post what you want to say mostly falls in the favor of boxers. Versus posting under random free to play accounts.



I didn’t take that post at all the way you took it, just for a different perspective.

Maybe it's just enthusiasm for the way the world/game was, but it's bad to reply to posts in that way, especially in a thread like this with it's terrible popularity contest aspect. And especially when I was busy trying to make several unpopular points nobody wants to hear, and he comes at me with this EQ nostalgia story. This is supposed to be a thread about real shit and honest opinions, something everyone seems to hate even though they need it. It's easier to just not post.

 

[allandallis235]

I've been thinking about this post for a week now and would like to hear more. It's probably worth a new thread. PM'ing you

Just starting up on emu it was fun and frustrating to get things up and going. I will absolutely agree with Coldblooded, emu needs some sweet luvvins (much like druids on live). My biggest concern is that emu is so far behind live (/cry for big bags and advloot). However, I LOVE LOVE LOVE that I'm not an made to feel like a degenerate to society. Its really cool to see folks talk "oh yea, use /bcga //end or /bcaa //end" in chat and give folks box/bot advice.

 

[Knightly]

Maybe it's just enthusiasm for the way the world/game was, but it's bad to reply to posts in that way, especially in a thread like this with it's terrible popularity contest aspect. And especially when I was busy trying to make several unpopular points nobody wants to hear, and he comes at me with this EQ nostalgia story. This is supposed to be a thread about real shit and honest opinions, something everyone seems to hate even though they need it. It's easier to just not post.

Yeah, I still don't follow. But that's okay. It seemed like you posted about how EQ was lightning in a bottle that was later tortured into bland electricity. Jetanroth said maybe that lightning was a product of the time and it would be hard to recreate. The reaction seems sanctimonious to me in any case. People are allowed to have different opinions though and I can respect both of your positions. Either way, I don't think it was meant as a popularity contest post.

 

[Atheos32]

Make unorthodox groups

Use mercenaries

3 bards with a tank merc supported by 2 healer mercs would be an example.

Pet groups

Druid DPS groups

Charm pet groups

Paladin groups


If the crusaders are looking for 6 character groups with optimized trinity + DPS~ADPS then don't give that to them

I was running a non-standard group, to avoid detection from day 1. I still got hit though I avoided it for a long time and arrogantly thought I was safe. I admittedly didn't use mercs so maybe that'll do the trick. But I was running full ranged DPS to avoid the obviousness of melee automation and drove the Sk with MQ2Eskay for assistance with combat but pulled manually and generally way more than 1 at a time in overland content. Despite the advice of others I steered away from "optimal group setups" in favor of niche setups like pet classes. Must admit SK, Chanter, Shm, Necro, Mage, and Beastlord were a fun setup.

 

[Jetanroth]

Yeah, I still don't follow. But that's okay. It seemed like you posted about how EQ was lightning in a bottle that was later tortured into bland electricity. Jetanroth said maybe that lightning was a product of the time and it would be hard to recreate. The reaction seems sanctimonious to me in any case. People are allowed to have different opinions though and I can respect both of your positions. Either way, I don't think it was meant as a popularity contest post.

@microscope That is pretty much it right there, but just clarify from my side, your statement of "This is supposed to be a thread about real shit and honest opinions" was literally exactly what I was tying to do man.

It is my honest OPIINION that the early magic we all experienced in EQ was potentially a once in a lifetime event with the perfect gaming mindset from both players and developers coming together at the perfect moment. And, as I said in the post, I could be totally wrong about that! I'd love to see something with the impact of original EQ get released. For me, that just hasn't happened yet.

Bottom line though, I respect your opinions as your own and I can assure you that I was not trying to negate any of your ideas or trying to downplay any of your opinions in any way. I am simply expressing my OWN opinion, nothing more.

 

[NobodyKnows]

I've been thinking about this post for a week now and would like to hear more. It's probably worth a new thread. PM'ing you

i am running my own emu for quite a while now (was - and still is if i find the time - as a translation project) and what I truly like about is that you can have real bots joining your group.
Implemented into the game code right away.

 

[woobs]

Just starting up on emu it was fun and frustrating to get things up and going. I will absolutely agree with Coldblooded, emu needs some sweet luvvins (much like druids on live). My biggest concern is that emu is so far behind live (/cry for big bags and advloot). However, I LOVE LOVE LOVE that I'm not an made to feel like a degenerate to society. Its really cool to see folks talk "oh yea, use /bcga //end or /bcaa //end" in chat and give folks box/bot advice.

Same here. Tried out Lazarus. I spent the whole day just getting my usual UI up and running (I have been using a variation of Infiniti Blue for many years). I am not sure how I feel about actually levelling characters up from Level 1 again, but I like that I can log in and tinker. Now comes ModBot.

Things will be even better once MQ comes to EMU!

 

[virtuoso65]

Well yeah. It's 7 days to the minute of when the suspension was issued, which is tomorrow.

I tried again yesterday, 2 of my accounts are no longer suspended, the rest are.

 

[microscope]

@microscope That is pretty much it right there, but just clarify from my side, your statement of "This is supposed to be a thread about real shit and honest opinions" was literally exactly what I was tying to do man.

It is my honest OPIINION that the early magic we all experienced in EQ was potentially a once in a lifetime event with the perfect gaming mindset from both players and developers coming together at the perfect moment. And, as I said in the post, I could be totally wrong about that! I'd love to see something with the impact of original EQ get released. For me, that just hasn't happened yet.

Bottom line though, I respect your opinions as your own and I can assure you that I was not trying to negate any of your ideas or trying to downplay any of your opinions in any way. I am simply expressing my OWN opinion, nothing more.

Fair enough.

 

[gameross]

For those talking about a MQ for emulators, there has been one available for years at: https://mqemulator.net/

 

[Knightly]

They're talking about the current version of MQ for emulators.

 

[Redemption44]

I work in technology in Silicon Valley and have done so for years, including stints at a few startups and some company's you know (I'm a computer scientist/software engineer). It's not about technology, its not about the user experience, its not the cool factor, at the end of the day for companies like DBG its a business and its always about the money, particularly in the C-suite. I think with the new ownership, the current EQ leadership has been given a bit of free reign to go after "cheaters" in the hopes that it will increase revenue by returning Everquest to its heyday and if we only get ride of cheaters/botters, gamers will flock back to Everquest and revenues will increase because obviously botters/cheaters are what has been driving declines in subscriptions. When the acquisition occurred, incoming ownership at EG7 were probably pitched this approach by JChan and her ilk and were given the green light so as to be given a chance to see how it goes.

I disagree, I think that this will not happen (revenue increase). In fact, I think players like me who have/had limited playtime and who's best gaming experience in EQ is running my own 6 box crew who abides by the common "play nice policy" are the sort of constant revenue streams that per subscription software businesses would crave. With that in mind I think the only real pressure to be applied is a financial one. This is what businesses understand at the end of the day. With that in mind, after catching my 1st suspension in 22 plus years and reading the writing on the wall I cancelled all 10 of my gold accounts. I see no reason to give business to a company who clearly does not want my business.

I think if you read the tea leaves this may be a viable approach but it will take time. I ask myself the question that I'm sure others have asked. Why only suspensions? If the VV and its ilk are so detrimental to the game, why only start with suspensions, why not go nuclear and just outright ban anyone found using automation? Because they want the revenue. From my perspective why on earth then should I pay for accounts I cannot use due to the ongoing crackdown? Its a bit of a catch 22 for them - piss me off and people like me and we go away along with our large monthly outlay, don't run me out of town and the white knights and vocal minority who whing about automation might go away with their single account.

It may take a couple of quarters each to see revenues contract. At that point if it does, the the people in the C-suite for EG7 will have some uncomfortable questions to put to the leadership at DPG if they are at all competent as to what they are doing. Its also possible that the amount of subscribers like myself (multiple accounts, buys kronos etc to feed my bot army, always buys the expansions, etc) are a minority of subscribers and trying to hit DPG in the wallet isn't viable, only they have the numbers - the fact that they aren't going all out ban tells me they need us financially and in the long run if financial pressure is applied they will have to come to an accommodation. In any case, in keeping with the times I'm applying my own financial sanctions against DBG (though I will keep subscribed to Redguides in the hopes you all come up with a solution.) For now I'm replaying Fallout....

 

[gameross]

They're talking about the current version of MQ for emulators.

The emulators don't use recent clients, so what's the point; especially when there is already a MQ available for the various old clients.

 

[Knightly]

The emulators don't use recent clients, so what's the point; especially when there is already a MQ available for the various old clients.

Lua for one. But there’s a ton of features in MQ that have been added in the last ten years too.

 

[Sic]

Lua for one. But there’s a ton of features in MQ that have been added in the last ten years too.

100%

The emulators don't use recent clients, so what's the point; especially when there is already a MQ available for the various old clients.

clean organized code that allows people who want to make awesome stuff a reality is a huge thing.

working in the old mq2 codebase versus the mq codebase for someone like me (uneducated newbie) was problematic - for many reasons.

I think we're going to see some really exciting stuff in the emu world with MQ happening

 

[MadaSnave]

honestly if enough of you that are and know how to code are willing to look at the eqemu client, the levels are built only to 70 even on the newest client. the major problem with going past 70 is a few things but its mostly that the scrip wont allow a higher spell/skill count and item counts and such. if i remember right you could only add a about 3500 new spells past 70 or to low levels. I also remember being warned to not add new items past a certain number as well. But if you keep the exp bonus down and replace some of the obsolete drops with drops that you would want to add. you can push it to 80 or so from what i was able to do.

if my no coding experience self can do that much i would love to see what could be done with and honest look at what the server has and what its full limits would be.

i will say this it was a lot easier to change the code on it and make what i wanted compared to either of the wow emu's that i had running this past year.

 

[MadaSnave]

as a side note, you also get to see some of the lies SOE told after 04 and the bard aoe dot nerf. its literally one line of code on the server to make the spells do damage to a moving target. dev's said it couldn't be un done in post back in 05.

 

[Knightly]

Ehh, not so much. The emu server code isn’t representative in any way of the EverQuest code base. So, how you change things on emu isn’t related to how it works on Live. There’s also the matter that emu’s client hasn’t changed, while Live changes every patch. So it’s not really apples to apples on “how hard would this be to change.”

But the reason they made that nerf was intentional, it wasn’t an accident. So I don’t think they wanted to go back.

 

[Sifter228]

I can see EMU being a very good thing for RG and the RG community and the EMU community as a whole.

The levels of cooperation and resources available or made available alone is a huge win for everyone.

 

[Deflo]

I canceled my 7 accounts 1.5 months ago. The reason was the suspension of one account.
I don't put any more money into a game that can only be played solo on TLP servers. I preferred playing on Live, but that is rather tedious and less fun without MQ2.

The time from 2000 to 2022 was a great time, but living under the sword of Damocles and having to worry that my ancient accounts will be banned I find unacceptable.

The current operators of Everquest have tightened the reins properly and as long as it remains so, I'm just a spectator.

At this point I would like to thank you for the many cool programs and tools that have supported the last few years in the game very pleasant.

see you again

 

[Sum1]

Yeah. He was a major PITA on the EQ2 forums before he found his way on EQ.
He also happens to spread his nonsense on other forums once he finds out that he is being talked about ... so expect him in here "soon"

He’s a moron, so…

 

[MadaSnave]

Ehh, not so much. The emu server code isn’t representative in any way of the EverQuest code base. So, how you change things on emu isn’t related to how it works on Live. There’s also the matter that emu’s client hasn’t changed, while Live changes every patch. So it’s not really apples to apples on “how hard would this be to change.”

But the reason they made that nerf was intentional, it wasn’t an accident. So I don’t think they wanted to go back.

bard nerf, and i know for a fact was because CS tickets for guys like my college roommate who would pull off of PoV mobs knowing each that didn't summon. and then grouping em up. hitting harm shield for a tight grouping then soon as it wore off aoe snare and aoe dots for duration of the life of the group, and geting 20 bucks for each pull to power level others in the college. it wasn't him alone. but every server back in 03-04.

 

[Saffron]

I am curious to see what happens. I have no words of wisdom to offer, only best wishes.

 

[L8erGator]

Same here. Tried out Lazarus. I spent the whole day just getting my usual UI up and running (I have been using a variation of Infiniti Blue for many years). I am not sure how I feel about actually levelling characters up from Level 1 again, but I like that I can log in and tinker. Now comes ModBot.

Things will be even better once MQ comes to EMU!

Woobs, I have somewhat of a vested interest in your engagement in Emu as I've experimented with Modbot in an effort not to have different macros I'm using for Live and various emus. If you want some GCs or plat or something to make your time on Laz easier let me know. I am personally vested in MB being well oiled on Emu so want to do my part.

 

[microscope]

The emulators don't use recent clients, so what's the point; especially when there is already a MQ available for the various old clients.

The newer version of MQ is much better. The MQ they use on most emu servers is e3 which is pretty good but not half as good as KissAssist or Muleassist, maybe the others I haven't tried. It all seems to work ok in EQ emu.

 

[blueadept]

Now if DB said it would allow MQ (with certain stipulations) for GOLD players only. It would give them an influx of cash flow. I would probably be willing to sub a team of 6 full time. I know, it is just wishful thinking....

 

[verboten]

"New Magic Perk" : Edit client memory with impunity. $1.99

 

[Ohgoditsjenny]

"New Magic Perk" : Edit client memory with impunity. $1.99

I'd expect them to either implement a /stick like feature and improve autofollow, or just say to hell with it and let people toggle on the merc AI for boxes as a perk before they'd do that.

 

[MadaSnave]

for me to not want mq2 they would have to make merc's useable at least until the most recent content. fix auto follow to actually follow. make it where boxers could actually log in multipul accounts with out being a hassle. and lol give all access all 3 of the extra perk packages as part of the current price for gold.