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Religion (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Cade
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Okay, now that I have my ugly out of the way for the day, I would like to mention that I too have spent most of my life studying religious texts....in fact....it's what I do for a living.
So I guess you are right, maybe I am not doing my homework on it since I am looking at it all day long anyhow.
With all do respect LadyGator, please read the previous posts before making such a statement as if I have no idea what I am speaking about. You can disagree all you want, but there is no reason for you to make a personal slander like that. Black, I, and all the others were having a "mature" converstaion before the likes of your "holiness" arrived.
So I guess you are right, maybe I am not doing my homework on it since I am looking at it all day long anyhow.
With all do respect LadyGator, please read the previous posts before making such a statement as if I have no idea what I am speaking about. You can disagree all you want, but there is no reason for you to make a personal slander like that. Black, I, and all the others were having a "mature" converstaion before the likes of your "holiness" arrived.
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BlackObsidian
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Yes.
There is little-to-no scientific evidence for a supreme God.
Religious people do not need the evidence, they allow their lives to be enriched by virtue of faith. To me this is not logical.
Agnostics acknowledge the lack of evidence but also acknowledge the possibility that there IS a supreme God. Because they see no clear front-runner in the argument or way of proving one way or another they sit on the fence. There is logic to this.
Atheism is entirely based upon the lack of evidence. This actually is the most logical decision.
If I told you there was a cosmic teapot in orbit around the sun which nourished all life on earth and thus should be worshipped without question or proof (it's too small bto be seen!) would you take it to be so or would you say "Based on the lack of evidence I'm afraid I don't believe you"? I know what my argument would be...
There is little-to-no scientific evidence for a supreme God.
Religious people do not need the evidence, they allow their lives to be enriched by virtue of faith. To me this is not logical.
Agnostics acknowledge the lack of evidence but also acknowledge the possibility that there IS a supreme God. Because they see no clear front-runner in the argument or way of proving one way or another they sit on the fence. There is logic to this.
Atheism is entirely based upon the lack of evidence. This actually is the most logical decision.
If I told you there was a cosmic teapot in orbit around the sun which nourished all life on earth and thus should be worshipped without question or proof (it's too small bto be seen!) would you take it to be so or would you say "Based on the lack of evidence I'm afraid I don't believe you"? I know what my argument would be...
Oh... Im here. Just been busy in RL and just got caught up on all the past posts. Wife is a flight attendant and she has been gone. Leaves me in a busy state working a full time job, being Mr. mom to her nephew and a farmer to her animals. Then to top it all off, my work blocks EQ on the web. So needless to say, Im in a "blah" mood today. I have alot to say on the past subjects, will just have to be another day. I dont want to come across in a bad way or blow up on someone. I want to keep this discussion in the more learning side and open and free discussion on the topic at hand. God!
Atheism is more logical then agnosticism? To be atheist is to say that there is no God while an agnostic declares that they don't have enough evidence to believe either way. IMO being atheist is a large leap of faith in that you are declaring something without proof (or disproof), being agnostic simply says that you don't see enough evidence to be certain either way.blackobsidian said:
NO ONE HAS CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE, unless, of course, they have been "interviewed" by God. But then, the experience might have been an hallucination. But even if there are folks having such an experience, and it were valid, everyone else would be forced to make a choice to believe or not believe the, for them, second hand evidence.
Ergo, there is no answer, just a choice. You choose to believe in God (deist), wonder (agnostic), or believe in Not-God (Atheist).
Deists claim to have convincing evidence, however it is not subject to public scrutiny. Those who claim "near death" experiences have only their own perceptions, they have no way to demonstrate it.
Everyone chooses to believe in something. I believe I will have a drink!
Ergo, there is no answer, just a choice. You choose to believe in God (deist), wonder (agnostic), or believe in Not-God (Atheist).
Deists claim to have convincing evidence, however it is not subject to public scrutiny. Those who claim "near death" experiences have only their own perceptions, they have no way to demonstrate it.
Everyone chooses to believe in something. I believe I will have a drink!
BlackObsidian
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alucard said:
Firstly, Atheism isn't about not believing in "God" for me. I know it can be classed as that but it can also be classes as not believing in deities at all which encompasses ALL religion. That's the standpoint I take; Having organised religion is worse for mankind than not having it.
Now to your points
You're going out on a date and you have to meet your partner at 7pm in X location. You sit patiently at 6:50pm and there's no sign if him/her so you wait more. 7pm rolls in and out, then 7:10pm, 7:30pm, 8pm, 8:30pm - At some point you have to make the decision that your date just isn't turning up, correct?
For an Atheist it's the same deal; There's never been any conclusive proof of Gods existence, not in the beginning, not now (and likely not in the future) so we've effectively made the choice that God just isn't turning-up. Completely logical.
CraztoPod said:
This is true, they dont have any way to domonstrate it. Christianity is built on faith. Just as I have faith that gravity isnt going to give out on me and let me float away, the same as I have faith that my car is going to get me from point A to B. The bible covers this in Luke 16. The story is this, however the main point is in the final 5 verses....
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
Blackobsidian said:
This is referring to the return of Jesus. It is stated many times throughout different books of the bible that the ruturn of Christ is iminent, but it is not told when. There is reference to symptoms of the times as I have stated in previous posts. Earthquakes in various parts of the world, which has been hapening. They were described as "birth pains", getting stronger as the time becomes closer.
See, ther eis no time where God is (Heaven). Heaven is beyond this universe, and it is proven that the further you go from the earths surface, time slows. How big is this universe? Is it big enough for us to go far enough for time to stop? I think so.
Look at the Hubble telescope pics http://heritage.stsci.edu/gallery/galindex.html and how far away some of those are and our technoligy. We cant find the outer limits of the universe. Could something this beautiful and enormous be the cause of nothing or some enormous explosion?
Think of this, If the earth was 5 miles closer to the sun than it is, we wouls all be dead in 1 hours time. Is we were 5 miles farther away from the sun, we would freeze to death. Seems to me that it was set up perfectly by a supreme being (God) and we are not here by some conclusion of.....????
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BlackObsidian
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Archy said:
PLEASE please please will people listen to me?
blackobsidian said:
blackobsidian said:
There's also the anthropic principle to take into account.
Meaning, the question of why things are so perfect can be answered in that if things weren't that way, we wouldn't be here to ask the question.
The Weak Anthropic Principle (paraphrased) said:
Meaning, the question of why things are so perfect can be answered in that if things weren't that way, we wouldn't be here to ask the question.
Okay. From a purely scientific point of view, agnosticism is the most correct choice. True, there isn't any hard fact proving God's existence. But there isn't any scientific fact that can dispute it, either. I, personally, have chosen atheism out of an admitted bias -- I don't like the idea of God because His existence implies that my freedom and will may not be entirely my own. For God to affect the Earth in any way, there would seem to be four options available to Him.
First: Direct contact. This would come in the form of miracles, etc.
Second: Indirect contact. We see this in the form of prophets, or other people who have been spoken to by God. Jesus would also fall into this category -- he was a represenation of God, yes, but it would be a difficult thing to claim that he was part of God's consciousness during his time as a man.
Third: Indirect control. We see this in the form of "natural" occurances -- hurricanes, typhoons, etc...the idea behind this is direct manipulation of the laws that govern nature without changing people directly, only manipulating how they react.
Fourth: Direct control...possession, even, though that word generally refers to more of a Satanic ideal.
My problem with the idea of God is that to take the role that our society believes that He does, He would have to exert control over us in all of those ways. Even if only by touching our mental choices just the faintest, it might still be required. Therein, for me, is the turning point. I would rather cease to exist, rather risk eternal damnation, rather know that our dead do not survive in some form, than accept the idea that I am who I am because of the meddling of someone else. I would rather be Hitler by choice than Gandhi by fate.
In all things, I believe in a form of "natural selection". So while I accept why this idea might be appealing, I hold a different set of views.
1) While our universe is not infinite (see Olber's Paradox), it is large on a scale that the human mind cannot comprehend. As some meager form of metaphor, I present this idea: What would something the size of an atom be able to comprehend about the size of our solar system? Our quadrant of the galaxy? Our galaxy? Thus I believe unfailingly that the odds require that intelligent life exist. While, yes, the odds are very small (see the Drake Equation), it would be downright foolish to believe that an "Overreaching Entity" is needed to have planned it. The universe is so staggeringly large that the idea that the "perfect" circumstances for our particular form of life would occur is not so hard to fathom.
2) As to the physical laws of the universe: You say this as if you believe that the current incarnation of the universe is the first. My personal belief is that the universe evolved as it is because when the laws weren't able to sustain the universe, it ceased to be, died, and after some amount of unknown time, another universe formed. Yes, I'm aware that there is no proof for this; I can only speculate on what seems entirely logical. The idea that the universe formed correctly and perfectly as it is on the first try does require a God. The idea that the universe came to be through a series of trial and error implies nothing of the sort.
Honestly, though, I'm not here to force my views upon others; merely explain them. I have no reason to believe that I am right in any matter of this sort -- I only know what feels right and what feels wrong.
First: Direct contact. This would come in the form of miracles, etc.
Second: Indirect contact. We see this in the form of prophets, or other people who have been spoken to by God. Jesus would also fall into this category -- he was a represenation of God, yes, but it would be a difficult thing to claim that he was part of God's consciousness during his time as a man.
Third: Indirect control. We see this in the form of "natural" occurances -- hurricanes, typhoons, etc...the idea behind this is direct manipulation of the laws that govern nature without changing people directly, only manipulating how they react.
Fourth: Direct control...possession, even, though that word generally refers to more of a Satanic ideal.
My problem with the idea of God is that to take the role that our society believes that He does, He would have to exert control over us in all of those ways. Even if only by touching our mental choices just the faintest, it might still be required. Therein, for me, is the turning point. I would rather cease to exist, rather risk eternal damnation, rather know that our dead do not survive in some form, than accept the idea that I am who I am because of the meddling of someone else. I would rather be Hitler by choice than Gandhi by fate.
In all things, I believe in a form of "natural selection". So while I accept why this idea might be appealing, I hold a different set of views.
1) While our universe is not infinite (see Olber's Paradox), it is large on a scale that the human mind cannot comprehend. As some meager form of metaphor, I present this idea: What would something the size of an atom be able to comprehend about the size of our solar system? Our quadrant of the galaxy? Our galaxy? Thus I believe unfailingly that the odds require that intelligent life exist. While, yes, the odds are very small (see the Drake Equation), it would be downright foolish to believe that an "Overreaching Entity" is needed to have planned it. The universe is so staggeringly large that the idea that the "perfect" circumstances for our particular form of life would occur is not so hard to fathom.
2) As to the physical laws of the universe: You say this as if you believe that the current incarnation of the universe is the first. My personal belief is that the universe evolved as it is because when the laws weren't able to sustain the universe, it ceased to be, died, and after some amount of unknown time, another universe formed. Yes, I'm aware that there is no proof for this; I can only speculate on what seems entirely logical. The idea that the universe formed correctly and perfectly as it is on the first try does require a God. The idea that the universe came to be through a series of trial and error implies nothing of the sort.
Honestly, though, I'm not here to force my views upon others; merely explain them. I have no reason to believe that I am right in any matter of this sort -- I only know what feels right and what feels wrong.
thez said:
I couldn't agree with you more, Thez. I picked a few sections of your post that particularly sruck a chord with me, but I'm impressed with the entire post. Logical, articulate, and unbiased.
On a somewhat unrelated note, you'll probably get hammered for it. I think it's hilarious that I got negative redcents on a post about religion where I suggested doing research rather than listening to anyone else - myself included. Guess thinking for yourself's a bit too dangerous for some forum members. But hey, if you're such a rule follower, what the heck are you doing on a cheating site? :boggle:
In fact, my main objection to the entire concept of religion is that someone else decides what is moral for me. One of my favorite quotes is "With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." It's sad that people will do all sorts of nasty things, from looking down on those who aren't religious to murder, in the name of religion, when most religions preach kindness. For example (here's another can of worms to open, and it's so much fun because I'm an agnostic woman saying it!), I strongly believe abortion is wrong. However, I am stunned and horrified when someone murders an abortion doctor. I see this as inconsistent in respect for life and other people, but evidently, some people have allowed their religious fervor to drive them into demonizing other human beings. None of us are angels or demons. We're human, with faults and virtues. Religion bothers me because it fosters an "Us vs. them" mentality that I abhor.
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Archy said:
Um, you do realize that these two examples are not faith, don't you? The theory of gravity (and yes, like evolution it is a "theory", because scientists are always open to having their theories disproven by new evidence. Another major way it differs from religion!) has been tested many, many times since Newton. Your automobile also operates on scientific principles discovered through trial and error, and a willingness to consider new ideas instead of taking things on faith.
I believe my car is going to take me from point A to point B because I have demonstrated its capacity to do so hundreds of times. That's science, not faith. I believe an object will be pulled by gravity to the ground if I release it because I've demonstrated that. I will never have "faith" in a religious sense because I cannot imagine why I would want to believe something that is completely untested and unproven. I equate it with trusting someone I have just met with my deepest feelings although I have no reason to think the stranger is trustworthy. On the other hand, I trust my husband because in all the time I've known him, he's always been reliable and honest.
I do not consider taking something on faith to be a virtue.
RedBema said:
This is why I don't like religion. I would never tell anyone on here to shut up. Heck, one of my degrees is in English, and it's all I can do not to scream about all the terrible spelling and grammar on here, yet I don't put people down or tell them to shut up when they write poorly. So poorly, in fact, that I must be dubious about claims of scholarship from them. Anyway.
As far as your study, I would be very interested in hearing about it. What opposing viewpoints have you studied? Which other religious texts (i.e., Hindu, Wiccan, Buddhism, etc.) have you reviewed? Have you only studied Christian texts by Christian authors, and assumed they were correct, or have you taken the time to discover the reasoning behind those who have opposing viewpoints?
Of course, you can always just give me another Christ-like response similar to the one above.
Running in Circles
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When I was growing up, my Mom took me to every church/temple/mosque/etc. she could find, just so I could experience them all and find out what one I liked the best. To be honest, I fell asleep at most of them. Even one Christian church that had some guitars and had gospels through rock songs. *shrug*
I believe what I want to believe, and I will not let someone else tell me what is 'right' and what is 'wrong'.
Free Will was given to us to have the freedom to choose as we will. If you do not like what I chose, choose to not do that and let it be.
Why don't I read the Bible? Because it's one (or many?) people's views on why certain things happened (or can/will happen). Same with the Book of Mormon, the Tipitaka, the Śruti, the Qur'an, the Satanic Bible, and more.
Either way, I live my life the way I feel most fulfilling. Religion gets in my way, telling me that I should or should not do things that make me happy and make my life worth living.
And, I am off again...maybe you will see me in another 10 pages :P
I believe what I want to believe, and I will not let someone else tell me what is 'right' and what is 'wrong'.
Free Will was given to us to have the freedom to choose as we will. If you do not like what I chose, choose to not do that and let it be.
Why don't I read the Bible? Because it's one (or many?) people's views on why certain things happened (or can/will happen). Same with the Book of Mormon, the Tipitaka, the Śruti, the Qur'an, the Satanic Bible, and more.
Either way, I live my life the way I feel most fulfilling. Religion gets in my way, telling me that I should or should not do things that make me happy and make my life worth living.
And, I am off again...maybe you will see me in another 10 pages :P
There is no theory of gravity, it is a fact! Even the fundamental nuclear attractions which, in gross, are demonstrated as gravity, are well understood and are far beyond of the realm of theory. (one for the Gator)LadyGator said:
Even if the car were patched together with "chewing gum and bailing wire," its operation is demonstrable. We expect that it will get us from A to B, but if it doesn't, the reason why not is readily discernable. No faith there. (two for the Gator)
However, every new idea you discover, or have introduced to you, must be taken "on faith." Until you, yourself, have taken the effort to translate the theory presented to you into experience, you can only believe. Ergo, taking something on faith is a necessity, NOT a virtue at first.
If, on the other hand, after sufficient time to "prove all things," one is still trusting the conclusions of other people (exercising faith), he/she is either a willing sheep (no virtue there) or so disinterested in the actual truth of the matter as to make the issue irrelevant. (two and a half for the Gator)
The Faithful might counter that, "Everything I have proven for myself leads me to trust the truth of the things I have yet to prove." My response to this is to ask, "What are you doing right now to prove the truth of the parts you haven't yet proven?"
If I read the comments of Gator and Black correctly, they are both propounding the idea that their examinations have lead them to reject the "rest." I might have that wrong, however, because after dismissing "faith," they both immediately segue to "religion."
Folks, I have an announcement: Belief in God is NOT Religion! Religion is human in its nature, organizations of men (mostly, very few women decision makers in organized religion).
I concur with everyone who flames the organizational inhumanities fostered in the name of some Deity. If there is a Creator (God), I am relatively certain that He (She?) would NOT condone strapping dynamite to children's bodies and sending them into crowded markets. Nor would He/She approve of warriors slaughtering non-combatants in His/Her name. Nor would He/She agree with torturing or killing people for the "crime" of not believing.
I wholeheartedly approve of Religions and Ministers who spend their whole efforts in bringing relief to the suffering and joy to their disciples. I will go to my grave condemning organizational inhumanity!
I also condemn the cynical men and women who enrich themselves and their families out of the donations of their sheeplike followers. I always doubt the sincerity of a "Pastor" who drives a Mercedes and lives in an opulent neighborhood. One of the Biblical passages that I love is Matt 10:8, "Freely you have recieved, freely give." The ministers whom I revere are those who have a day job, supporting themselves and their families from efforts unrelated to their ministries.
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BlackObsidian
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Hopefully not one of those sick-fuck, brainwashed Becky Fischer followers? You know, that child-abusing sorry excuse for a human being who preys on the young and impressionable for her "army of God"...
CraztoPod said:
Gravity is a theory according to those who have PhDs in physics that I know. Same as evolution - there's a massive amount of evidence supporting the theory, but it could be disproven or modified by new information. That's what I love about science; it doesn't insist on itself. Oh, that reminds me of the funniest Family Guy episode...anyway...
I was an extremely devout Christian at one time. Sang in the choir, all that jazz. The more time I spent in theology, the more I questioned the tenets of Christianity. Then, after my graduate classes in engineering and history (yeah I know, I am a school addict, I like to study everything
To me, the universe is an endlessly fascinating place with all sorts of incredible secrets to discover and mysteries to unravel. But that's way off topic...), I became more and more disillusioned. I finally did nothing but read on every religion/mythology I could get my hands on and talk to worshippers of different faiths. Eventually, I decided I wanted no part of faith or religion.I couldn't agree with you more that faith and religion are separate. Fact is, I am agnostic because I am totally undecided on the existence of God, and I do not deprecate those who believe in something strongly. As I said, I once was a strong believer myself, and I respect the viewpoints of those who are devout though I do not share them. However, I am pretty disgusted with and horrified by religions as institutions. The more history I read, the more I'm disgusted by them. Bottom line, my conclusion and the conclusion of many historians is this: Evil or selfish people have used religion as a means of manipulating the credulous throughout human history. How many Christian theologians have actually read Origen? He was important to the early Christian church and created many a convert, yet because his views were unpalatable to those in power, he was declared a heretic. I don't even want to get started on the Inquisition, or the Crusades, or 9/11...
What worries me about faith is that it can lead people to join religions and blindly follow those whose intentions may not be as pure as they have led their followers to believe. Just because I don't see faith as a virtue doesn't mean I have a problem with it if you do see it as one. I just want people to think carefully before they choose their paths. Blind devotion to anything or anyone can be a slippery slope indeed. Belief in God in and of itself is fine; belief that every word in a book written by and in some cases badly translated by men...that concerns me. Belief in how another human being - priest, reverend, shaman, whatever - interprets God and belief in whatever they say... that strikes me as outright dangerous. All of it reeks of giving up our right to self-determination. Of course, if Calvin was right, we're all just puppets anyway, but not all Christians believe in Calvinistic predetermination. The fact that no religion can even decide among its own followers what is right just reinforces my viewpoint that religion is created by all-too-fallible men and can be used for evil.
Right now, as I type, there are people around the world killing each other because there are differences in how they worship the same god. It's not even different "faiths", per se, it's Shiite versus Sunni, or Catholic versus Protestant, or whatever, ad infinitum and ad nauseam and how many innocents' blood is spilled?
I have no problem with others' having a different opinion. I have a problem with people wanting to kill me, or other law-abiding folks, because I have a different opinion. I have a problem with people telling me I have to attend this church or that church because if I don't I'm evil and I'm going to hell. If religion could be counted on to mind its own business, perhaps I wouldn't dislike it so much.
Oh, by the way, as a woman, I love the observation about how usually men run the churches
Maybe that's another good reason not to belong to one! LOL Oh, since there seems to be a problem understanding me on here - THAT WAS A JOKE. So don't call me a feminist, because I'm not one :PLadyGator said:This is why I don't like religion. I would never tell anyone on here to shut up. Heck, one of my degrees is in English, and it's all I can do not to scream about all the terrible spelling and grammar on here, yet I don't put people down or tell them to shut up when they write poorly. So poorly, in fact, that I must be dubious about claims of scholarship from them. Anyway.
As far as your study, I would be very interested in hearing about it. What opposing viewpoints have you studied? Which other religious texts (i.e., Hindu, Wiccan, Buddhism, etc.) have you reviewed? Have you only studied Christian texts by Christian authors, and assumed they were correct, or have you taken the time to discover the reasoning behind those who have opposing viewpoints?
Of course, you can always just give me another Christ-like response similar to the one above.
Gator,
Yes, indeed I have and continue to study other religions. I in fact have an entire personal library that includes other religions texts, such as the Koran (Quran), Book of Morman, New World Translation, The Origin of the Species, etc...
I told you to Shutup because you made a very rude and disrespectful comment about me and about my knowledge apparently without even as reading one of my comments. You can ask anyone around here and they will all most likely tell you that I remain very calm when it comes to discussions about religion. I will never continue a discussion with an individual who begins to attack the person rather than the topic at hand.
I would suggest that you read my previous comments before putting a stipulation on me that I am just another Christian Dunce that has never studied my religion, but only believe it because it was what I was probably raised with.
For that, Mrs. Gator, I will reply to your personal attack with another personal attack and tell you to Shutup, and I would tell you again. And for someone who is Anti-Christian, I would ask you to not make rude sarcastic remarks about a religion that you do not hold to, and have no inspiration of.
Whenever you decide to grow up yourself and want to have a discussion such as Black and I had, I will not discuss anything with you because you have no understanding on how to maturely perform that task. Yes, I told you to Shutup, and I will again if you continue to make slanderous remarks to me or anyone else for that matter. Feel free to make fun of my faith again and see what happens. I never once made fun of yours.
By your continued statements toward me, such as the above, I can see that you view me as nothing but a faith fool, who doesn't beleive or hold to anything because I am stubborn in Christ. You cannot be more wrong, and I would suggest that for future reference, you make sure where the conversation is before you jump in and attack me personally, telling me that I am the one who has not done my homework. My "homework" is my life, and you have the fortitude to tell me that I don't know what I am talking about. I don't ever recall telling you that you are "the one who has not done your homework."
Feel free to get upset at me taking it personally, but it was a personal slander. The way that I deal with that is to make my last remark, such as I did, and then conclude the conversation.
Thez, Black, Alucard, and anyone else that I have been having this discussion with, I will continue to discuss religion with you because you know how to do it. It is people like Gator who come in and begin arguments with personal put downs.
I may care what others think, but I have never felt any reason to get "mad" or "angry" if someone does not believe what I believe. Of course man wants other men/women to agree with their understandings, but why in the world should we get mad if they disagree? Please read through my arguments Gator, from page 1, and you will see that I discussed religion without ever telling anyone that "they are the ones that have not done their homework." Nor did anyone make a slander to me. You have no right to come and act as if you are a martyr, and feel "hurt" because a "Christian" told you to shutup after you told him that he was "stupid" and never studied anything else.
BlackObsidian
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Krispy Kremes > Religion
I R t3h machuristest person in da hole werld! \m/\m/
Also I have to say that under normal circumstances Bema is pretty chilled. It's not a frequent occurence for me to be able to chat in a mature manner with someone about religion without the proverbial Gollum Syndrome popping up ("Not listening!")
I R t3h machuristest person in da hole werld! \m/\m/
Also I have to say that under normal circumstances Bema is pretty chilled. It's not a frequent occurence for me to be able to chat in a mature manner with someone about religion without the proverbial Gollum Syndrome popping up ("Not listening!")
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RedBema said:
Likewise.
RedBema said:
I did not personally attack you. I hold with my statement that anyone who believes that the Bible is the literal word of God has not done their homework. Even when I was a devout Christian, I held no such illusions.
You make many unwarranted assumptions. I am not anti-Christian, and I think if you had read my posts thoroughly (thus my likewise comment), you would know that. My daughter is being married in a Christian ceremony this summer, and anyone who personally knows me knows I absolutely adore my daughter
I am anti-religion, but as was mentioned in earlier posts, religions are insttituions, not individuals.RedBema said:
I did not make fun of your faith. Please read my other posts. I have stated more than once I respect others' faiths; I simply do not share them. And, from my perspective, you've done far more of the personal atacking here than I, but I guess that's just something more we have to disagree with.
I'm perfectly capable of having a mature discussion. I've actually read all your posts, which you obviously haven't done with mine. I also didn't attack your maturity, as you do mie. I simply point out that at no time can I envision the Jesus Chirst described in the Bible telling someone to "shut up". I stand by that observation.
RedBema said:
Not at all true. I really don't think you're reading my posts. EVerything you've said here seems to be directed at some concept you've constructed of me based on becoming enraged with me, rather than a realistic view of me. I actually think you're probably an inteligent young man who has unfortunately allowed his emotions to take over in this matter. Let me say here and now, I sincerely apologize if anything I've said was construed as a personal attack against you or your faith. I assure you, I did not intend it to be one. Perhaps it's just the limitation of attempting communication in this forum, because we can't se each other's expressions etc.
RedBema said:
I NEVER called you stupid. Never. I do not think you are stupid. Some of the most highly intelligent people I know are Christians, and for me to assume you are stupid because you are Christian is not my way. Once again, I don't think you're really hearing me. I think you're just angry and you're firing on me with both barrels.
I am truly sorry we appear to be unable to discuss this. It reminds me of when I try to have a discussion on abortion where I suggest that each side try to concentrate on reducing unwanted pregnancies and work towards ameliorating the adoption process, so that more people can adopt. Immediately, the pro-choice crowd starts screaming I am a Bible-thumper who wants to abolish birth control (now that's just too ironic, isn't it?), and the pro-lifers start calling me a murderer. It's a shame, but I think sometimes passions run too high to talk about certain issues.
I wish you the best, Red, and I sincerely hope your pursuit of religion makes you as happy as my abandonment of it has made me.
bah said:
I'll call you anything you want; I'm a fan because you actually have a half-naked man as your post icon.
I get tired of the women ones. If I want to see bouncing boobs, I'll jump up and down in front of the mirror. Funny thing, never actually wanted to do that LOLalucard said:
True. However, if you look at the facts and deny them, that's what I'm talking about. I found no facts to support the Bible's being the literal word of God, and I looked very hard. I found a lot of facts that contradict that view. The preponderance of evidence indicates it isn't. To go back to gravity, if you watch me drop something 20 times and still say there's no such thing as gravity, we were looking at the same facts, but the conclusions we draw are different.
I do not and will not argue the existence of God. He or she may or may not exist. I am pretty darn sure that he or she didn't write the Bible, though
The bible is not a topic as clear-cut as religon.LadyGator said:
I feel the same way, my previous post wasn't about my religous views.LadyGator said:I do not and will not argue the existence of God. He or she may or may not exist. I am pretty darn sure that he or she didn't write the Bible, though
lol... You replied so quickly that I thought I had never posted at all.
Gator,
I will apologize for my misunderstanding of your comments. I took it personally whenever you said that I was the one who did not do my homework.
I shouldn't of taken it that way and to be honest I do not know why I did. Usually, I keep my cool. I apologize for telling you to "shutup" because it was not a patient, longsuffering response the way that Jesus most likely would have handled it. Good thing that I am not Jesus though, and only a finite sinful human being, otherwise the world would be in a bigger mess.
I am sorry for taking your comment wrong. It is only that I feel as if I do do my "homework" on a daily basis and felt as if you were slandering me for my faith. As I stated before, usually, it doesn't bother me, but I felt as if you had just entered into the conversation without knowing where I truly stand and I considered you to be ignorant. I apologize for this.
I am sorry to hear that you fell away from the faith (personally sorry that is.) I truly do believe in Jesus as the Christ and rest my entire life on that "truth." This thread has been good for me, especially at the beginning whenever I was involved deeply with Blackobsidian.
Again, I am sorry for losing my cool. It has been happening alot with me as of late in my life and I need to figure out why.
Best Wishes,
RedBema
I will apologize for my misunderstanding of your comments. I took it personally whenever you said that I was the one who did not do my homework.
I shouldn't of taken it that way and to be honest I do not know why I did. Usually, I keep my cool. I apologize for telling you to "shutup" because it was not a patient, longsuffering response the way that Jesus most likely would have handled it. Good thing that I am not Jesus though, and only a finite sinful human being, otherwise the world would be in a bigger mess.
I am sorry for taking your comment wrong. It is only that I feel as if I do do my "homework" on a daily basis and felt as if you were slandering me for my faith. As I stated before, usually, it doesn't bother me, but I felt as if you had just entered into the conversation without knowing where I truly stand and I considered you to be ignorant. I apologize for this.
I am sorry to hear that you fell away from the faith (personally sorry that is.) I truly do believe in Jesus as the Christ and rest my entire life on that "truth." This thread has been good for me, especially at the beginning whenever I was involved deeply with Blackobsidian.
Again, I am sorry for losing my cool. It has been happening alot with me as of late in my life and I need to figure out why.
Best Wishes,
RedBema
blackobsidian said:Also I have to say that under normal circumstances Bema is pretty chilled. It's not a frequent occurence for me to be able to chat in a mature manner with someone about religion without the proverbial Gollum Syndrome popping up ("Not listening!")
BTW,
Thanks Black. I appreciate that.
BlackObsidian
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LadyGator said:LOL Amen! Mind if I use that as a tagline, Black? That's great
Be my guest! In fact, I may well change mine too
RedBema said:
Not a problem. I'd only say that if I meant it and as mentioned it makes a big change for me to discuss rather than talk at someone with earplugs in
LadyGator said:
RedBema said:
There is a story of Jesus going to the temple and overturning the money changers tables and losing his temper for the people turning the house of God into a place of business. Don't be to hard on yourself Bema, as you said, you are human, not Jesus Christ. We all have fallen short of the glory of God. Would you envision the Holy Man named Jesus doing this? I understand the reasoning, but when I read that for the 1st time, it was hard for a meek and mild man named Jesus to do this.
LadyGator said:
Well, He didn't write the Bible. The Bible was written by many different authors that were inspired by God or, if you will, the Holy Spirit.
And....
LadyGator, me driving my car from point A to B does require faith. I have faith of MANY things that this will take place. I have faith in:
1) The manufacturer of the vehicle and the quality of their ability to do so.
2) My personal mechanical abilities to repair the things that do break.
3) The tire manufacturer that they were tested properly before being installed on my car.
4) The oil company mixed all the chemicals properly to lube the main/rod/camshaft bearings, and other internal parts.
5) Faith that other drivers infact are paying attention and aren't going to cross the line and kill me.
6) The list could go on forever of how I have faith in these things.
It could get as simple as when I drive up to Albertsons grocery store, I have faith in the fact that they will still have milk on the shelves for my nephew to eat his cereal with in the morning. Faith is everywhere. Having faith in God is no different, just a much more important part of life.
LadyGator said:
Can you elaborate on this some? I believe the word of God is perfect and without error. What van you show me that would prove that the blessed word of the only living God isnt true?
Running in Circles
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I would say that it may be right, but nobody can 'prove' that that is the word of God, and not just some man 3000 years ago that thought those are good standards he lived by.
Neither can be proven...and I find it funny that people argue over the proof of 'holy scriptures' and even kill over them. Just because he doesn't believe the way you do gives you the right to go kill him? We are all human, and we all have the right to live...and just because they don't agree with the way you see it does not mean he is your enemy. I have friends with all sorts of beliefs...Mormon, Catholic, Pagan, Agnostic, etc. I like every single one of them because of the person they are, not what they thing is waiting for them after death.
hmm, maybe I'm just rambling on deaf ears...and my post is going to be ignored yet again :P
owell... ^^
Neither can be proven...and I find it funny that people argue over the proof of 'holy scriptures' and even kill over them. Just because he doesn't believe the way you do gives you the right to go kill him? We are all human, and we all have the right to live...and just because they don't agree with the way you see it does not mean he is your enemy. I have friends with all sorts of beliefs...Mormon, Catholic, Pagan, Agnostic, etc. I like every single one of them because of the person they are, not what they thing is waiting for them after death.
hmm, maybe I'm just rambling on deaf ears...and my post is going to be ignored yet again :P
owell... ^^
And what God would that be? Vishnu? Allah? Quetzalquatl? Jehovah? Gitchimanitu? Budda?Archy said:
Further, what is the WORD you mention? Is that a single word? What word? Love? Brotherhood? Sacrifice? mebbe Jihad?
If, by WORD, you are using Christian shorthand to imply the Bible, what translation are you refering to? Duay? King James? New World? New American? New Living?Each separate translation has internal inconsistencies that invalidate some of each of the others.
for example, did Jesus say, in the Lord's Prayer, "Forgive us our trespasses." or did he say, "Forgive us our debts."? The Lawyers amongst us know that there is a significant difference therein. Which one is the "Blessed word?"
Come on folks, lets discuss the issues rationally, not fall back on trite phrases invented by men to justify their positions.
I am not criticising those who believe the Bible is of God, but I am criticizing those who fall back on the sanctity of their beliefs as a justification for their beliefs. Further, I don't like the holierthanthou implication that some of the posters herein are on the side of the angels and the rest of us are fallen heathens. That disenfrancises everyone who doesn't believe as you do.
***************************************
He drew a circle that shut me out--
Heretic, rebel, a thing to flout.
But Love and I had the wit to win:
We drew a circle that took him in!
"Outwitted" by Edwin Markham