Religion (1 Viewer)

[RedBema]

Cratzopod has to be the reincarnation of DrZap.

 

[alucard]

What van you show me that would prove that the blessed word of the only living God isnt true?

For atheists it's more of a lack of proof.

 

[LadyGator]

Gator,

I will apologize for my misunderstanding of your comments. I took it personally whenever you said that I was the one who did not do my homework.

I shouldn't of taken it that way and to be honest I do not know why I did. Usually, I keep my cool. I apologize for telling you to "shutup" because it was not a patient, longsuffering response the way that Jesus most likely would have handled it.
Again, I am sorry for losing my cool. It has been happening alot with me as of late in my life and I need to figure out why.

Best Wishes,
RedBema

Red,
I am truly sorry if I said anything that you took as an insult. It wasn't my intention. It may be difficult for you to believe of someone who is not a Christian, but I do not wish to hurt anyone. If I came across as harsh, I assure you, I was just typing in a hurry and didn't give as much thought to my wording as I should have. The "do your homework" thing seems to be a big thing for you - I was responding to an earlier post which used that phrase; I didn't coin it. In fact, I was using it not to insult you, but to emphasize that it was unfair to assume unilaterally that someone who disagreed with you hadn't done their homework. I am sure, reading how I posted, I didn't make that clear, but I don't claim to be perfect, either Far from it! I do strive to become a better person every day, though, and it hurts me that I may have hurt you. I believe we are all connected, my closest thing to a religious belief, and that it's important to be gentle with each other. I fell short of that here, obviously. I like to debate things, because I learn so much from people who disagree with me, and I'm always willing to see things from another viewpoint. I'm so used to doing this in RL with people who know me that I probably didn't consider how I might sound to someone who doesn't know me.

I do not desire to be personally at odds with anyone. My best friend is strongly pro-choice, and in fact had an abortion and feels she made the completely correct decision. I'm as pro-life as it gets; I was a pregnant teenager who didn't have an abortion and I am convinced I made the correct decision. Nonetheless, she's my best friend, and we love each other. I know you can have different viewpoints and not be personally disdainful of the other. That's apparently not working here, though.

I formally retire from the discussion. I would like to apologize to anyone I may have offended or who may have felt personally attacked. I do not apologize for my opinions, merely for any wording which may have come across as a personal attack. It is my devout wish to discuss ideas in a debate, not resort to ad hominem tactics. If I failed to do so or anyone perceives that I did, I apologize.

I'm leaving the site as well, canceled my subscription on PayPal, so don't bother with any more angry PMs.

I wish everyone here the best and happiest life, and may you all kick ass at the games of your choice! Live long and prosper.

I'm gonna go enjoy some more March Madness. Go Gators! Go Running Rebels!

 

[RedBema]

In fact, I was using it not to insult you, but to emphasize that it was unfair to assume unilaterally that someone who disagreed with you hadn't done their homework.

Lol,

Glad that you came by to make a last comment. I find it ironic that you state that you were making the comment in order to emphasize the fact that because someone disagreed with you, doesn't mean that they did not do their homework, because that is exactly how you used the comment. I never once eluded to anyone never doing their homework. Still, again I apologize if you disagree with the way that I answered you back.

Gator, I also have no sympathy for you if you choose to leave this site over this discussion. Many of the people in this thread are my good RG friends, and even if I completely disagree with them, I don't de-friend them, nor leave the site.

It may be difficult for you to believe of someone who is not a Christian, but I do not wish to hurt anyone.

Again, I think that you are the one that has resorted to viewing me as if I am a faith fool, or a Christian Dunce, a.k.a, one that has no idea of the outside world rather than the "Bible Belt" of America. It is not "difficult for [me]" to believe of someone who is not a Christian. I run across them daily. So I ask again, please do not jump to conclusions.

I accept your apology and thank you for it, but felt as if I needed to make known your last remarks in how they are being perceived, at least by me. Good luck in your life as well.

This discussion has gone way off track so I am going to close it unless some serious people get in her to seriously discuss the topic.

Redbema

 

[thez]

Religion (or unReligion) is a very difficult topic. People who talk about it tend to get...hmm...very worked up. Talking about it brings out some of the views that we hold that generally are hidden by social grace, or the like.

To provide an example...I find it VERY hard to respect someone who is ignorant by choice or by laziness. If the information is out there...get it. But some people just won't. Even better, there are some people who believe things that are false just because it fits with their world view. Thus, we end up at the core heat of this discussion: I believe that somewhere in everyone, there is a bit of disgust for people who don't know the truths that we know. I can't prove that idea, but I do truly believe it. If someone were to say to me, "The earth is the center of the universe, everything rotates around it", I would probably walk away from them (and attempt to eat my own head). If someone told me that the earth was flat, I'd probably slap them once across the face, and then walk away. So if I were one of those people who genuinely knew, without a doubt, that God was nonexistent, and that He had never existed, or done anything, to our world...that the Bible and other texts were false...yeah, I can see myself looking down upon people who believe that He Is Around Us. The reverse, of course, also is true.

The thing to keep in mind, folks, is that we do not...cannot...know. The only thing that tips you one way or the other is your belief in what is right. I, personally, do not acknowledge the existence of God because of what he implies (explained earlier), but that doesn't mean that I know that he doesn't exist. So just keep in mind, the next time that you have a religious discussion, that no one know the Truth. They only have faith one way or the other.

 

[Tone]

ROFL I didn't take the time to read any of this bullshit, but props to Cade on a good thread ^^

 

[BlackObsidian]

Religion is bad hmmkay?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6477177.stm

 

[Cade]

ROFL I didn't take the time to read any of this bullshit, but props to Cade on a good thread ^^

TONE! /snuggles

Back on topic,

Religion isn't always bad, just when people's complete lives revolve around it. Now, I'm not saying one should put aside 5 minutes a week to be religious, and the rest go completely against it. It should always play a decent part in one's life, but it should never drive one to violence.

 

[BlackObsidian]

But if children are brought up in the faith of their parents and are not allowed to question or make up their own minds (or indeed are brainwashed to the point that they physically CAN'T question faith) they could well end up violent, as has been proven through generations.

 

[lapidusva25]

Am I the only jew?

Generel, I am jewish also. Lihayem. none of these goyem know whats going on.

 

[BlackObsidian]

There's always one...

 

[azulyn]

Darwin is God.

 

[BlackObsidian]

Again that's individual opinion

 

[Archy]

Now, I'm not saying one should put aside 5 minutes a week to be religious, and the rest go completely against it. It should always play a decent part in one's life, but it should never drive one to violence.

I agree here Cade! If you say you are something and don't live it, then you are just a hypocrit. I believe we all falter(sin) from time to time, some more than others. It is our beliefs that drive us.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6477177.stm

Black, you bring a lot to this discussion and it is appreciated, /bow

However my viewpoint on this link is Hmmmmm.... upsetting, but at the same point enlightening. It hurts me to see that a fellow christian has fallen in the battle of their faith, but it is written in the bible(which I believe) that people will die for their belief in God. When I say this, I DON'T mean it is alright to strap a bomb to your chest and go into a populated area and blow yourself up for your religion. Maybe I don't understand the Koran (I need to do more homework on it), but I have been of the understanding that it was a book of peace. How come it seems that there are these extremists that feel it is necessary to kill over it... 911, this link? I mean I don't recall ever hearing in the news any Christian extremist killing people over the taking or distruction of the bible or whatever. I am sure there are people that profess to be a Christian and have done terrible acts, but I submit that they were not born again in Christ.

 

[.b00n.]

I think it is wrong that people die in the name of their own or another's religion. Religion is meant as a way to bring people together, not put them against each other. But, there is a difference between killing someone because they are a different religion, and killing someone because they disrepected yours. Someone elses religion should never be attacked, verbally or physically. Religious tolerance is about respecting the beliefs of others. When you "desecrate the Koran", someone is going to get upset. Not justifying the murder or anything, just saying.

Im only 17, and it is true that I was brought up as a muslim because my parents were. However, my parents never said, "Islam is the best religion" or anything like that. They let me be open to the other possibilites, and I chose the one that I thought was reasonable.

Religious extremists, or radicals, stem from non-secular governments. With a mixed sense of religion and politics as one, people like "suicide-bombers" take hostile action in the name of faith to secure political motives. For example, nations such as former Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, all had a non-secular form of government (Hussein, Al-Queda, and the Shah) Now, those who planned terrorist acts used politcal reasons as justifcation. "We wanted the West out of the Middle East, this is the only way they will listen"

 

[BlackObsidian]

I think the problem is the amount people let things affect them... Football supporters will beat-up on people who support an opposing team, gangs will kill each other because one member "dis-respected" another by driving through their "hood", religious fanatics will kill people with what they see as faiths opposing their own. (and when I say "will" I don't mean in all circumstances, 90% or more of any of the above will be fine in any situation but you can't deny that there are some who take things too far!

If someone walked up to you as a law-abiding Christian and said, "Do you believe in the Koran?" and you replied that you did not, they MAY (not saying they will before anyone jumps on me!) decide that you are desecrating their religion, after all your views are a 100% negative to their own according to their interpretation of their book. (and these interpretations are a whole new issue for me I'm afraid... People twisting a book that apparently preaches peace into a machine of war!)

I mean I don't recall ever hearing in the news any Christian extremist killing people over the taking or distruction of the bible or whatever.

Thanks for the Kudos Archy!

Not meaning to cause offense but The Burning Times would disagree with this statement... http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_burn.htm

In my opinion EVERY religion has the potential to be mis-interpreted, abused or used (even non-intentionally!) in such a way as to affect the lives of those who are not of the same belief system.

I read a quite disturbing article a few weeks back which I'll try to dig out and post.

 

[.b00n.]

In my opinion EVERY religion has the potential to be mis-interpreted, abused or used (even non-intentionally!) in such a way as to affect the lives of those who are not of the same belief system.

Exactly.

I mean, when I was little, I was taught, anything that couldn't be explained, you would give religion/faith credit for. I say religion/fate, even though they are two seperate approaches to a similar idea. For example, the theory that if our planet were a little bit closer/further away from the sun, humans probably couldnt survive the way we do today. I mean, was it just a miracle that we got the perfect spot? I mean, it's either Aliens in another universe that constructed our universe, or God. Some people, the religious ones, chose God. Other chose "Aliens", these are your non-believers, or agnostics. Unfortunately, not everything in our world can be explained scientifically, so people choose religion as a "filler" to the story,

 

[alucard]

I mean I don't recall ever hearing in the news any Christian extremist killing people over the taking or distruction of the bible or whatever.

The Romans, the crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, The Salem Witch Trials... the list goes on and on.

 

[BlackObsidian]

The problem is that there are so many satisfactory explanations for things.

It can be explained that the earth's position within our solar system could indeed prevent life as we know it if it strayed only a few hundred miles.
However by the same token, if earth was 500 miles further afield, what's to say that a whole new planet of life would not have been formed? A planet perhaps where everyone praises themselves as creations of a higher being and points out that "if our planet was just 500 miles nearer the sun, life as we know it would not exist!"

"as we know it" I think is the key phrase in that instance.

At the moment I still hold to the idea that there may well have been a higher being at some point in the past who drew up the laws of the known (and unknown!) universe and that we are simply part of the result... A fractal image if you like...

And that article I mentioned was this:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgardo_Mortara

 

[Archy]

Thanks for the Kudos Archy!
Not meaning to cause offense but The Burning Times would disagree with this statement... http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_burn.htm

Was this intended to say that I was incorrect? Lost me a bit there with the way the order was of the post. If the article was to say as "alucard" did, then this is what I saw in the article....

Most of the victims were tried executed by local, community courts, not by the Church.

The Romans, the crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, The Salem Witch Trials... the list goes on and on.

The Salem Witch Trials I have read several articles on since I started this post and I find, probably well known, that it was against the law to practice witchcraft and as "The Burning Times" states above they were executed according to the law, not the church. The articles I read and didn't find the mention of Christians in any of them were...
http://www.salemweb.com/memorial/
http://www.salemweb.com/guide/witches.shtml
http://etext.virginia.edu/salem/witchcraft/
http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/salem/

I am not a history buff by any means, but the others I will do more reserch on as well!

However, I was looking for something a bit more recent as to the point I was making. As ".b00n" was saying about recent time extremists.

 

[BlackObsidian]

Yeah sorry, I R t3h speek Inglash bad. hehe

Recent(ish):-

http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/content/news_syndication/article_060223nigeria.shtml
http://www.mccmedia.com/pipermail/brin-l/Week-of-Mon-20040503/018993.html

The problem is that any kind of religious doctrine can be mis-interpreted or abused... The Koran is a book of peace but is used to insight war and even the Bible has some obscene things in it (which I can quote if needed?)

http://www.religioustolerance.org/intol_bibl.htm

The problem with your "law" arguement in historical episodes of Christian abuse is that laws in those days were drafted-up by those in charge and guess who was in charge? Taht's right, hardcore Christians!

Even in our day and age now, Bush has pushed for abortion to be illegal because of his personal religious view when in reality what a person does to their own created, unborn embryo is their own choice (up until it is sentient in which case things are a little cloudier!)

 

[Pugs]

I am surprised that Richard Dawkins has not been talked about till now, here is one of my favorite descriptions of the God that most Americans follow

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."

Richard Dawkins In The God Delusion

 

[.b00n.]

The Salem Witch Trials I have read several articles on since I started this post and I find, probably well known, that it was against the law to practice witchcraft and as "The Burning Times" states above they were executed according to the law, not the church.

Err. Allow me to quote wikipedia.

[Witchcraft] became a sign of a pact between these people with supernatural abilities and the devil. Witchcraft became associated with wild Satanic ritual parties in which there was much naked dancing, orgy sex, and cannibalistic infanticide.

Now, even if witchcraft, and the idea that people had supernatural powers first started in the minds of scholars, and wasn't related to religion, the witch-hunts were purely religous. It was the belief that the Devil had possessed the "witches". True, it was law, but it was law stemming from religion.

As ".b00n" was saying about recent time extremists.

Not necessarily. It may be true that you hear about islamic extremeists now more than previous years, radicalism has been around for a long time. Religious tolerance was only first seen with the Mongols, only a couple hundred years ago, and wasnt always widely accepted. So, before you had religious intolerance (duh!), and that is a radical view.

 

[alucard]

The Salem Witch Trials I have read several articles on since I started this post and I find, probably well known, that it was against the law to practice witchcraft and as "The Burning Times" states above they were executed according to the law, not the church. The articles I read and didn't find the mention of Christians in any of them were...

At the time, Christianity was the law, hence the entire trial being about the Devil. The people killed did nothing wrong, but were slaughtered by Christains.

The Spanish Inquisition from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_inquisition


"The Inquisition was created through the papal bull Ad Abolendam, issued at the end of the 12th century by Pope Lucius III "

"The Inquisition was extremely active between 1480 and 1530. Different sources give different estimates of the number of trials and executions in this period; Henry Kamen estimates about 2,000 executed, based on the documentation of the Autos de Fé, the great majority being conversos of Jewish origin.[6]"
The Inquisition was extremely active between 1480 and 1530. Different sources give different estimates of the number of trials and executions in this period; Henry Kamen estimates about 2,000 executed, based on the documentation of the Autos de Fé, the great majority being conversos of Jewish origin.[6]




Throughout histroy the Popes have launched "Holy Wars" that killed many people, and to hear someone say

I don't recall ever hearing in the news any Christian extremist killing people over the taking or distruction of the bible or whatever

worries me, as many more people have been killed in the name of Christianity than almost any other religion.

 

[.b00n.]

And to say that Christians don't get into wars over religion is bogus, especially because there are specific descriptions in the Bible regarding war and violence and carrying out God's will. Throughout time, the Bible has been used to justify acts seen as appalling. I mean, Joshua's narrative on the holy war, and all the Old testament hereos fought in the name of Christianity. (see the Book of Samuel,Kings, and Psalms) In fact, Psalms 58; 137: 7-9; 18: 17-48;94; 149: 6-9 all show how God calls on his people, and makes them victorious against the peoples of other religions. The Covenant Story? Describes killing the infidels in the promised land, under "the Lord". There is a bunch of historic references to war and violence under God in the Bible.

 

[alucard]

I've deleted my previous message as it was unclear and not really related to religion anyway.

and No, I'm not against Women's suffrage or Gay marriage, my post was just poorly written, lol.

 

[Archy]

Well, you are right that there was MANY wars in the Old Testament. Sampson, thew wisest man that ever lived slew thousands of people in the name of God.

And Samson said, With the jawbone of an ass, heaps upon heaps, with the jaw of an ass have I slain a thousand men.

But who am I to say weather it is right or wrong. We have taken the discussion to the point of proving that there is NO concrete proof that God does or does not exist. The fact that I live and breathe tells me that He does. And upon this belief, if God does exist and he did create the Heavens and the Earth as stated in Genesis 1:1...

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

He is OBVIOUSLY a supreme being to us humans! And if this is so, I would believe that I have no right to question his motives or his will. I am a Christian and I know enough about history to know the killings were because of religion. However, I believe you are connecting Christianity and Catholicism here as you mention "holy wars" and the Pope. It might be misconstrued because some belief are along the same lines, but Christianity is NOT the same religion as Catholic. I believe we all have a pre-determied life span and it is your time when God says it is your time. I live day by day and have RL problems just like everyone. But I dont worry about the future or death. I worry about my wife, my family, and the possibility of suffering during death, but not death itself. I believe that there is an eternal life after this mortal life and that we chose in this mortal life as to where we spend eternity. Not by our works, but by our faith and the belief in the fact that God sent his son on this earth to take the sins(past, present, and future) of us humans on his shoulders and die so that we may live. The works we do are caused by our belief in a eternal God, our eternal life is not caused by our works.

 

[.b00n.]

Umm... without sounding too ignorant... Can someone explain to me the difference between Catholics and Christians?

 

[alucard]

.boon.- Catholics are Christians that follow the pope.

Archy-

No, but Catholic is Christianity, so a pope ordering the crusades were "Christian extremist killing people."

 

[Archy]

Am I to believe that you are saying that Catholics are Christian extremists? See, as I said, they believe the same basic core beliefs, but I view them as a totally different religion. People will argue that mormons are Christians, but they aren't, not by ANY means!

Not all do this, but quite a few Catholics pray TO the Virgin Mary. That's wrong. They believe she is a saint because she carried the Son of God in her womb. She was of the line of David. It had to be this way because of the prophecy of God.
Some also pray to the saints.....that's also wrong. Nothing wrong with honoring the saints, and the Virgin Mary. But when you PRAY to them, you're putting them in God's/Jesus's place, and that is not right.
Christians believe, and according to, the Bible is the divine-inspired word of God. We pray to God/Jesus, which it specifically says to do in the Bible, not to the saints. Jesus tells us that, "No-one shall come to the father except through/by Me".

That is a reference to being saved and born again through what Jesus did on the cross for us at Calvary. And, the dying on the cross is important because that is where your and my sins rested on Jesus shoulders, but the resurrection 3 days later is what makes the whole incident glorious.

 

[.b00n.]

Am I to believe that you are saying that Catholics are Christian extremists?

No, what he meant to say is that, Catholicism stems from Christianity. So, because everyone in group A is also a part of group B, then the Catholics, who are christian (according to alucard), led a holy war, against non-christians. And in leading a holy war, those few Catholics became extremists. Not catholics in general.

 

[.b00n.]

I think differentiating between catholics and christianity is kinda pointless. I mean, its like shiites and sunni muslims. Shiites say after Muhammed came Ali, Sunni's say it was Omar. It's really riduculous that something like that could lead to the genocide of an entire people.

 

[alucard]

People will argue that mormons are Christians, but they aren't, not by ANY means!

Catholics and Mormons are both Christian and just because you belive in a different type of Christanity doesn't mean that they aren't. (sorry if my tone is agresive, but it seems that you are simply incorrect)

Am I to believe that you are saying that Catholics are Christian extremists?

I never said that oO, that would be like saying Muslims are terrorists.

 

[.b00n.]

I resent that.

 

[alucard]

I can imagine, just as Generel must get tired of stingy jew jokes.

btw: Mormans are another example of Christian extremism, as many mormons have been killed by mobs of Christian extremists.

 

[Andrew1]

This has been an interesting thread, indeed.

After reviewing it a second time, it appears as though many people have the same questions: Is there a God? How did it all start? Where do I fit in with the grand scheme?

It is my humble and inconsequential opinion that these are important questions for every human to ponder more than once in their lives. Through reflection on such topics, we may find an interest or yearning to explore, more studiously, these questions. God only knows (pun intended) what you'll find while exploring - or what will find you.

They are not easy questions, so be sure to start your exploration early on. I'm sure when the end of me arrives, the truth will be the truth regardless of whether I subscribed to it or not.

Humans. The world has become what we've made of it, I think. Thank goodness we weren't involved in "Creation." We'd likely leave out a member of the food chain, or forget to factor in the gravitational pull of the Moon before we "booted up" Earth's rotation. One thing I think we can all agree on is that where Perfection is concerned, Humans are always falling short.

Respectfully, Christians are human as well. They make the same, if not more mistakes that those that do not profess to be Christian. Just because Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." -- John 14:6 (NKJV) - doesn't mean that Christians are any better at being Human than others. Christians must remember that they are not to cast their pearls and realize that trying to play the proof game and trying to "convert" others is not Christian. Christians claim to want to live according to Jesus. He was perfect, Christians are not. To attempt to take on any of His perfection is to lie to oneself and others. Unfortunately this is where I think much of the criticism of Christianity comes from. The "holier than thou" attitude and a very lightly understood doctrine make for a very cynical audience. I urge those out there to be mindful.

Please forgive me if I create offense. My intention is to communicate candidly.

That being said... keep asking those questions... start some exploration... and in the mean time, I'll quietly pray to my God that he finds you.

Peace be with you.

 

[BlackObsidian]

If your God made mankind in his own image and mankind is inherently flawed (as you've mentioned) does that mean that God himself is imperfect or that his creation of us was imperfect?

Also your argument on the "very lightly understood doctrine" being the cause of criticism for Christianity is pretty weak; there are MANY Atheists, Agnostics etc who were born into Christianity and have chosen to open their minds to other reasoning behind events and life. These people may well have a thorough understanding of various doctrines or indeed religions but for them the reasoning is that the likelihood of the truth behind the 2000 year-old game of "telephone" is slim.

 

[BlackObsidian]

Question... Why is this making people angry?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6509127.stm

What makes this so different from the crucifixion scene displayed on posters, on churches, in churches, on car bumpers, on websites, on flyers and even worn around the necks of millions of people?

Also why even display the crucifixion so prominently anyway? If Jesus was indeed to return as has been forecast by many people, why would he want to have reminders everywhere of his death? Isn't it like forecasting the return of JFK and wearing little sniper rifles around your neck?

How would you feel if you were killed for your beliefs and opinions by being hung and then millions of people around the world began wearing nooses around their necks "in your name"?

Not meaning to sound insensitive but I don't understand it.

 

[Andrew1]

Good morning, BlackObsidian!

I'm afraid there is a misunderstanding. I mean that Christians that have a "holier than thou" attitude and also Christians that only lightly understand their own doctrine make for a cynical audience.

There was no reference of mine to any other belief set in that paragraph.

You ask a number of good questions. Sometimes I ask questions because I earnestly seek the answer. Other times I ask questions because I am trying to make a point. Are your questions seeking an earnest answer? If you really wish to know, I can offer some answers, but bear in mind we are aware from the start that my answers may not be in agreement with your perspectives.

 

[BlackObsidian]

Hey!

I didn't realise that's what you meant, my bad!

Any questions I ask on here are purely questions; although I'm an Atheist I do hold to the fact that should any evidence come up which I place a value on, I am open to changing my opinions without question.

Speak to RedBema if you want an opinion on me, he is a pastor and thus the complete opposite to me, however we still talk with maturity and respect of each other's views. That's the type of person I will always respect.